Should all migrants learn to speak English

[Loz]

LondonMix Wrote:

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> Making fluency in English a pre-requisite is just too high a bar I think.

But 'fluency' isn't the bar. I just checked and the required level is A1.

Which is, frankly, a piece of wee-wee.

[miga]

Otta Wrote:

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> And you shouldn't use your kid as your personal

> @#$%& interpreter!!!!!!!!!

Some degree of this is inevitable for ESL kids, as a kid you just absorb a second language, especially idiomatic stuff, much more quickly than grown ups.

[LondonMix]

What is A1- I'm familiar with that term? How much English would you need to past the test?

Loz Wrote:

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> LondonMix Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Making fluency in English a pre-requisite is

> just too high a bar I think.

>

> But 'fluency' isn't the bar. I just checked and

> the required level is A1.

>

> Which is, frankly, a piece of wee-wee.

[DaveR]

The SC judgment is a bit more nuanced than reported above. What they said was that the rule is lawful in itself, but that the current guidance makes it too difficult to allow for exceptions, and consequently there will be quite a lot of cases where its application will be unlawful.

The justification for the rule as found by the court was:

"It is not difficult to see the benefits to integration of even a basic level of English language skills. It must be beneficial for a newly arrived partner to be able to go into a shop and buy groceries and other necessities, to say "hello" to the neighbours, to navigate public transport, to inter-act at a simple level with bureaucrats and health care professionals. Integration is a two way process. It must be beneficial for others to see that the people living in our midst and intending to stay here are able and willing to join in and play a part in everyday social interactions, rather than keeping themselves separate and apart."

Difficult to disagree with.

They go on to say:

"The problem lies not so much in the Rule itself, but in the present Guidance......The appropriate solution would be to recast the Guidance, to cater for those cases where it is simply impracticable for a person to learn English, or to take the test, in the country of origin, whether because the facilities are non-existent or inaccessible because of the distance and expense involved. The guidance should be sufficiently precise, so that anyone for whom it is genuinely impracticable to meet the requirement can predictably be granted an exemption. As was originally proposed, those granted an exemption could be required to undertake, as a condition of entry, to demonstrate the required language skills within a comparatively short period after entry to the UK."

Which seems very sensible.

So actually not much of a story here, except perhaps that it is good to be wary of relying on simplified reports of complicated legal cases, and that judges are rarely as fusty/stupid/out of touch as they are often painted.

[Loz]

LondonMix Wrote:

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> What is A1- I'm familiar with that term? How much

> English would you need to past the test?

The CEFR levels are pretty standard across all language now. A1 is beginner level then it goes A2, B1, B2, C1 through to C2 which is proficient.

A1 is pretty much "My name is Fred. I come from London. What is your name? Where is the nearest railway station?" type stuff. You need to be A2 or B1 to be able to hold a meaningful conversation.

Wiki has A1 as:

- Can understand and use familiar everyday expressions and very basic phrases aimed at the satisfaction of needs of a concrete type.

- Can introduce him/herself and others and can ask and answer questions about personal details such as where he/she lives, people he/she knows and things he/she has.

- Can interact in a simple way provided the other person talks slowly and clearly and is prepared to help.

[LondonMix]

Thanks Loz

[red devil]

So basically, all they have to do is watch a few re-runs of Only Fools and Horses...Mange tout Rodney, mange tout

This has reminded me that I did some English 'tutoring' in Hong Kong whilst waiting to start a job. Somewhere in Hong Kong there is a 25yo bloke who's only grasp of English is to recite the Man Utd Double winning team of 1994 :)...

[womanofdulwich]

There are some very wealthy households in London where the man of the house speaks English and his wife /wives and domestic staff do not speak English and are not allowed access to English. I have never seen any children, but I always wonder what happens to them. The women are not let out without the man. Its horrible. :(

[Louisa]

I struggle to speak basic English as it is. Only when I'm in Spain does my English improve, mostly because it's the only way I can get them to understand me.

Louisa.

[bobbsy]

I don't think learning English should be enforced. I simply think that government departments etc should only print forms and provide services in English, and not provide free translation services. If people want to access government departments they will therefore need a working knowledge of English.