Phrases which offend..

[SeanMacGabhann]

On another thread a debate has sparked up around the rights and wrongs of using certain phrases which could be seen as prejudicial - in this case "chav"

What are peoples thoughts on this and other phrases / prejudices which they think are a) out of order or b) justified

[mockney piers]

If you embrace a phrase then it looses all power to offend.

I like to think of Mrs Mockney and I as the Mick and the Spic!!

[SeanMacGabhann]

lol Mockney... I shall be sure to address ye accordingly in future

[*Bob*]

Did anyone see Julie Burchill's doc about 'Chavs'?

Have to say I've since thought twice about using the word and feel a bit uncomfortable when the word gets bandied around in public (especially by the educated middle class)

The English language is chock full of fantastic cuss-words. It is the best language in the world for swearing in. The trick is to use the words sparingly to the right effect. If every other word you say is 'fuck' or 'cunt' then what's the point?

There aren't many words which I actually find offensive. I can only really think of 'nigger' and 'faggot'.

[ChavWivaLawDegree]

I am proud to be working class, and more than a touch chavvy. I used to fight, and loved scaring the crap out of posh kids, cos they tried to look down on me. My mum was a social climber and I became a social decender in response. Loved every minute of it, but then decided I wanted to prove I could do the middle class stuff so got a law degree, and am growing my own veg, but I'm still a chav through and through, and love chav life!

[*Bob*]

Interesting...

Does the forum software automatically censor f*** and c*** if they are not 'starred' (as I did above)?

That tells you something, I suppose.

[capt_birdseye]

I thought "chav" was a particular kind of person, not just the working class in general.

[SeanMacGabhann]

I'm off the opinion that if Julie Burchill is for something, I'm agin it. She was very quick to point out that because that girl in the Bb house wasn't working class she got off lightly compared to Jade, which I really disagree with

I think words can only be offensive if the intent is so - that is why, for example, I think the Jade Goody/ Indie Music girl incidents on BB were quite different. That shouldn't give anyone a blanket excuse to say whatever they like mind you

The n word is a good example - among black britons it appears to be still taboo if my friends are representative. But the US seem to have moved the word on to a different place. Watching The Wire of late (yes, another plug for the best TV show ever) it's a word that is used far from sparingly and it's always amongst friends. I suspect this is how teh BB contestant got it so wrong...

[ChavWivaLawDegree]

What really upsets me is that people like the twatty "Little Britain" couple who are elite educated, are allowed to attack poor people and chavs calling it comedy and this is considered acceptable and prime-time veiwing. Like I said before if you did the same type of thing but replaced chav for black, asian or some other oppressed group you would rightly be seen as a bigot and face possible criminal charges, but the the poor are a group of oppressed who have been persecuted throughout history with impunity, unless their labour is needed (or they have fought and won concessions from the elite), then they become the proud working class, until they become surpless to requirements again and are discarded.

But they don't disappear (although Churchill wanted to make that happen by promoting sterilisation for all poor women), they merely become marginalised and it makes me sick seeing how the poor working class have become feared and hated by pretty much everyone.

[SeanMacGabhann]

ChavWivaLawDegree - interesting background but I'm not sure - why did you reach the "I wanted to prove I could do the middle class stuff " stage.

And while some posh people do enjoy looking down on working class people, it ain't a given. Some working class people assume that all middle-class people are tossers and end up hurting people who have no grievance with them at all. I wouldn't say that's something to be proud of

[Asset]

From Wikipedia:

Chav or Charv/Charver even Chavster (male) and Chavette (female) ('ch' pronounced as in chair) is a mainly derogatory slang term in the United Kingdom for a subcultural stereotype fixated on fashions derived from American Hip-Hop (African-American) and Guido (Italian-American) fashions and stereotypes such as gold jewellery and designer clothing combined with elements of working class British street fashion. Chavs are generally considered to have no respect for society, and to be ignorant or unintelligent. The term appeared in mainstream dictionaries in 2005.[1][2]

The defining features of the chav clothing in the Burberry pattern (notably a now-discontinued baseball cap) and from a variety of other casual and sportswear brands. Tracksuits, hoodies, sweatpants and baseball caps are particularly associated with this stereotype. Response to the term has ranged from amusement to criticism that it is a new manifestation of classism. [3] The term has also been associated with delinquency, the "ASBO Generation", "Hoodie culture" and "yob culture".

The accepted etymology for "chav" is that it derives from the Romani word "chavi", meaning a child.[4] Related words derived from the same source include "charva" (used in northern England in a similar sense) and perhaps the obsolescent "young shaver" (meaning a boy). In modern Spanish "chaval" means "lad".[5]

[*Bob*]

ChavWivaLawDegree is right.. to a certain extent.

Though I feel I ought to point out that if you hadn't have 'loved fighting and scaring the crap out of posh kids' when you were young then those kids might not need use the word 'Chav' in order to try and assert their superiority (over people they are afraid of) in later life.

RE Julie B, I disagree with 80% of what she says but miss her Guardian column very much. She was, however, spot-on about 'Chavs'.

[Ted Max]

ChavWIALD, are you a bit inept with a spray can?

[ChavWivaLawDegree]

SeanMacGabhann - cos I always knew I could but never wanted to before.

I also got fed up with middle class people I talked to saying, "You're actually quite intelligent aren't you" and having to say "I know, but why did you assume I wasn't?" knowing it was because of my accent and my rough edges. So now I'm a Chav with a Law degree, I can tell them this immediately and they don't have to go through all that embarrassing stuff, of discovering I'm not as thick as their pre-conceived notions of class made them think I was.

TedMax - I'm crap with a spray can. Why did you ask?

[SimonM]

>>There aren't many words which I actually find offensive. I can only really think of 'nigger' and 'faggot'.<<

"spaz", "crip", "muffdiver", "chav" as well as the words you cite, are all apparently in this weird category of words that are offensive unless used self-descriptively. I have never been happy with this new phenonemenon (at least I think it is new) of worda that have a kind of two-tier offensiveness rating.

[mockney piers]

Chav, I do sympathise with you to quite an extent, but you're not helping stereotypes, and may indeed be as much a culprit yourself when you define working class as fighting and scaring posh kids, and middle class as getting an education and gardening.

I know that a large proportion of those that I studied with came from poorer backgrounds, mostly from yorkshire, Lancashire and the west midlands (I went to Keele). My own father is resolutely working class, largely autodidactic and managed to end up a tour guide teaching art, architecture and culture to people from all over the world.

He, in my experience never once resorted to violence (well, maybe one incident involving a neighbours house and some bangers but I probably deserved a clip round the ear). Of course he survived a civil war and didn't have the luxury of associating violence with a bit of a larf.

[*Bob*]

Muffdiver ?!

[James]

ChavWithALawDegree I sympathise with your frustrations re. being patronised by posh people. But I don't understand why you choose to brand yourself a "chav" as if to suggest that all working class people are chavs by default. I know working class people who would be totally offended by this. I also think boasting about fighting is a bit dubious too.

If you really were a chav you probably wouldn't know it.

[ChavWivaLawDegree]

Mockney - I was the kid in (rough as arseholes) school who all the teachers wanted to go to Uni because I found academic work easy, but I was more interested in sport, boys, smoking a few spliffs round the bike shed etc (much more fun!). So I ran riot for about 30 years, popped out 4 kids (to 3 dad's) and finally decided to have a go at uni at the age of 39. Gotta admit I loved it, and yes some of the posh people there were actually very nice people, not as condecending as my pre-conceived notions of them made me believe they would be! My kids are all suprisingly well balanced individuals in case you were wondering - even I never quite expected that.

I also took up Taekwondo in my early 20's and was legally permitted to kick the sh** out of people and fought in the UK nationals. I think what the problem in our society is that the kind of people who would have evolved as brilliant hunter/gatherers are not really suited to our sedentary and over complex, logo-centric society and need more positive outlets for their lack of fear and physical energies.

James - I suppose I want to claim the label chav, because the problem with being working class and accepting what is and is not acceptable as being the middle/upper class norms many working class aspire to; is that you look fake and will still be looked down on by the middle/upper classes anyway. So I guess its just my way of saying that I don't accept those norms and don't feel the need to smooth the harshness in my personality to make the middle/upper classes feel secure and comfortable.

[Ted Max]

I used to fight, and loved scaring the crap out of posh kids, cos they tried to look down on me.

[Brendan]

Maybe I?m from a different generation but all the ?working class? people I know have degrees or successful trades of some kind that earn them more than those of us with degrees.

[mockney piers]

Well you actually sound alot more balanced than you give credit for.

If it's any consolation I went to a comp with a good mix of kids from the middle class estates and the so called rougher estates and we all mixed pretty well.

I think casual violence is pretty much endemic to the whole english experience. What I like about London is you're much less exposed to it; every time I head back to Herts it's everpresent and usually shocks me even though I spent 18 years with it all around such that I barely registered it.

I managed to balance my interests in drugs, petrol bombs and girls (the last being mostly aspirational and theoretical if I'm going to be honest with myself) and generally stupid behaviour with a path that ended up with university and borderline alcoholism. Still it all more or less panned out in the end.

Totally agree with you about our sedentary lifestyle. That coupled with the politics of envy and a culture of consumption is a large part of why society is going a little bit loopy at the moment.

any way, where we....flipping nonces* was it?

*yes *Bob* it would seem the sweary-mary filters are on, this was as close a match as I could think of at short notice

[SeanMacGabhann]

That's all very well CWALD, but what we want to know is - do you prefer Ciabatta or Sourdough?

Sounds like you were rebelling against quite a lot back in the day...

I was in a similar school/position from 12-16 but didn't take the education route either. (Still haven't)

Didn't take a "me against the world route" either - i just left home to see what was out there.

Interesting last point you make too. But you have got a cheeky streak so you might have been satirising....

[ChavWivaLawDegree]

Mockney - I think growing up in Birkenhead and leaving school as Thatcher entered number 10, may have coloured my experience somewhat!!

[SeanMacGabhann]

You think asterisks are bad???? You should try and spell the word "special - ist" on here (properly) and see what happens when you post