they are still doing it (parents leave child in car)

[James]

I prefer to see it as people highlighting prejudice in the views expressed that the holder of the view seems oblivious to... Do you not agree that you made a large number of assumptions about the incident that were actually pure conjecture?

Hmm. So if I say something you disagree with it is assumptions & conjecture. But if you agree I am helping to "highlight prejudice." Is that how it works?

[Alan Dale]

You didn't say anything that I disageed with. You made a number of spurious inferences from the initial post to the extent that I was unsure if I was missing something or if perhaps you had observed the baby desertion yourself.

Whether you are complicit to my cause or not you are definitely facilitating it.

[*Bob*]

Alan,

Would it be possible for you to edit your posts so as not to sound like a rejected script from 'Judge John Deed'?

They would forthwith be henceforth all the betterer for it.

[Alan Dale]

Wud u prfr txt spk & :))s?

[mockney piers]

Mayhap a judicious combination of d 2 ;-P

[Alan Dale]

Tyrants.

I would prefer that you embrace diversity rather than demand conformity.

[*Bob*]

Just write something that doesn't make me fall into a coma. That's all I ask.

[Alan Dale]

Are you calling me boring? I suppose that compared to an armless narcolept that is a fair criticism.

Your dichotomous conditions must give rise to a very badly bruised face.

You can rest assured that I am finding you particularly entertaining.

[*Bob*]

GASP! Certainly not!

I find you to be - lestforthly and herewith therein - a hoot.

[citizenED]

Down at the Dulwich park playground you commonly get as many adults as children. Little sprogs are accompanied by parents, grandparents, au pairs, nannies and assorted friends. Although this is seemingly right there is also something a little unnerving about it. Why so many minders? Walk to the Fireman's Alley entrance to the park and there is another little play area, just beyond the gate. I regularly see little nippers playing in there with no adult supervision. It brings joy to my heart, that in our over-suspicious world, some parents are trusting enough, of their offspring and of other adults, to allow this. It must be said that by my observation the kids in the Fireman's play area are largley black whereas the ones in the park are a mix. Perhaps this tells us something about middle class and working class values.

To Lilly123, I imagine that scenes like the one you observed outside Tescos, (people momentarily leaving their little ones unchecked) happen all the time, every day, and that the chances of a kiddie being snatched is, statistically speaking, 0%. So don't fret so. Next time you witness it, do the right thing, keep your careful eye on the child and then watch as the parents return. That's your job done as a responsible parent and citizen.

citizen

[Asset]

Citizen - most of the kiddies in the Dulwich park play area are too young to be going to the park unaccompanied presumably why they have carers wth them, the other bit is near the houses isn't it? I don't think it's a 'class thing' merely proximity to the play zone.

[mockney piers]

funnily enough when Mrs Mockney and I took a walk through dulwich/sydenham woods the other day, I thought aloud that it's a great area for kids to grow up, especially with these woods.

Mind cast back to making camps and dens and running around muddy ditches playing war (how unPC) and scuffing knees.

Then I got terribly depressed to note that every child we saw was attached by some imaginary tether to within 6ft of an adult.

I perked up a bit to see a couple of lunatic kids running around just before we left.

Of course it could have been full of kids hiding in camps (possibly smoking dry cow parsley tubes) and I just didn't notice. I hope so! It did give me a moment of melancholy that the something went horribly wrong in the eighties at some point.

Presumably swallows and amazons will be a historical text now will it?

* i was free to play from about 4 onwards, and I consider myself middle class - just for the record you understand *

* we also left our front door open, and though that stopped after my bike got nicked out of the garage, I've left my front door accidentally unlocked a number of times of late and so far nothing wrong *

[James]

I don't share your delight at the kids playing unsupervised, sorry! Again is this some kind of weird inverted snobbery? If some posh little dears were playing alone are you sure you wouldn't be a bit more critical?

PS Have never heard of the Fireman's Alley entrance but it made me laugh. Sounds like a euphemism. Sorry :))

[SeanMacGabhann]

James - you can really bring class into everything can't you? Having met the fine Citizen I can assure you he is scrupulously fair in his appraisals and would think exactly the same of any playground..

One of the reasons I resist having kids is that I would want them to be able to run free and and unsupervised - but despite the fact they are as unlikely to come to harm as I was growing up, the opprobrium from fellow-concerned-parents would do my head in..

[James]

Well actually it was Citizen who introduced the race angle and I qualified it by suggesting it was more a class thing.

It is a bit sad that kids can't run as free as they once did but it's the inevitable greater awareness of modern media-driven society. There's probably no more risk of eg. paedophilia than there was fifty or a hundred years ago, whatever the rabid tabloids might say. Still, if you asked a parent who let their kids play unsupervised & something bad happened I'm sure he/she would tell you that it's a risk not worth taking. Sad but true.

[citizenED]

James, read my first post again re. race and class. cheers

citizen

[James]

Okay. And?

[citizenED]

James,

I qualified my own observation regarding race by a comment about class.

citizen

[James]

Oh right. Yes. Okay, well that means I just referenced your race/class thing rather than qualifying it. Right you are.

[mockney piers]

I think it was more about sean saying james always brings it down to class, but actually it was yourself citizen.

[Keef]

I "played out" from quite a young age, and that was with a mother who felt sure I'd be run over because of my eyes). Kids used to play out in big groups, and would "knock for" each other, so I guess had safety in numbers.

With regards to Dulwich Park, I only really remember playing there whilst my mum was there, but that was at a very young age. Kids who are allowed a bit more freedom don't want to waste it in a kiddies playground, that's just for babies ;-)

I used to love Dulwich Woods, and Piers, it was perfect for playing war and abseiling down the hill using vines. It's also an amazing place to let the imagination run wild, because there's so much interesting stuff there!

But, I can see why parents are so over protective (and in my opinion it is OVER)... At the end of the day, you may know you're being over protective, and you may know the chances of something terrible happening are miniscule... That wouldn't make you sleep better if something did though!

That said, I hope I can let my kids run wild a bit.... So long as it's in a beer garden, and they're annoying some other poor drinker! :)-D

[SeanMacGabhann]

Ed raised the possibility of inherent class values rather than himself making a judgement about about class I thought... It was the presumption that Ed's opinion might be different if the class positions were reversed which I found odd..

James' point about the age-we-live-in re: media is true as well. I just wonder when people (and I mean generally, not on here) are going to start taking responsibility for the world they live in rather than living-by-proxy depending what the media leads with. All very Orwellian I know...But then my name is Smith. You can call me Winston

[mockney piers]

I thought that this picture perfectly encapsulates britain today

 

[spadetownboy]

citizenED Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Down at the Dulwich park playground you commonly

> get as many adults as children. Little sprogs are

> accompanied by parents, grandparents, au pairs,

> nannies and assorted friends. Although this is

> seemingly right there is also something a little

> unnerving about it. Why so many minders? Walk to

> the Fireman's Alley entrance to the park and there

> is another little play area, just beyond the gate.

> I regularly see little nippers playing in there

> with no adult supervision. It brings joy to my

> heart, that in our over-suspicious world, some

> parents are trusting enough, of their offspring

> and of other adults, to allow this. It must be

> said that by my observation the kids in the

> Fireman's play area are largley black whereas the

> ones in the park are a mix. Perhaps this tells us

> something about middle class and working class

> values.

>

> To Lilly123, I imagine that scenes like the one

> you observed outside Tescos, (people momentarily

> leaving their little ones unchecked) happen all

> the time, every day, and that the chances of a

> kiddie being snatched is, statistically speaking,

> 0%. So don't fret so. Next time you witness it, do

> the right thing, keep your careful eye on the

> child and then watch as the parents return. That's

> your job done as a responsible parent and citizen.

>

>

> citizen

what does it tell us about working class/middle class values citizen,is it that working class kids play in firemans alley and the middle class ones in the park, or is it that working class parents are more trusting of the population as a whole or is it just that they couldnt give a toss about their kids and let them out to play alone in a world infested with paedophiles,drug dealers and god know what else while middle class parents dont.by the way i am assuming that the kids you are refering to in firemans alley as mainly black are the ones of working class stock,while those in the park are middle class.thats one hell of an assumption to make boyo classing someone by their colour and where they live and play,one hell of an assumption.

[ChavWivaLawDegree]

As the token chav on this site, I'll try my best to provide an unpaid translation service to those of you who have only ever seen one of us from afar!!

I lived on an high density council estate in Elephant & Castle and our kids played with other kids of all ages and usually no adults in the communal gardens in the centre where we all looked out for them from our overlooking balconies. I moved to Dulwich in January and really like it here but it's been a bit of a culture shock. When I took my daughter to the playground in Dulwick park I was amused by the fact that there were more parents in the playground than kids and I'd seriously never seen anything like that before.

The situation on our estate had been totally different. Usually if I was going to be taking my kids to the park or anywhere else, it would be me, and maybe a friend, with some of the other kids from our estate tagging along. Most of my friends on the estate are single parents, and we would take it in turn to give each other a break from the kids. The adults would usually chat and leave the kids to play, only intervening if someone got hurt or was arguing with another kid.

But when I took my daughter to Dulwich park, very few of the kids had one parent with them, most had two, and it was rare to see more than 2 kids with any couple of adults. Plus what I found wierd was that most of the parents were actually in the playground bit, trying to show their kids how to play, not with the other kids, just how to play on the swing, the slide etc and talking to them and fussing over them constantly.

By their accents they did mainly seem middle-class and I am definately working class. I hate class divisions but I don't understand what their motivation for this was. Is this a middle-class thing or not? I don't know, but I don't understand the over-protectiveness of a lot of those parents. The lack of freedom is very sad to me. I try to give my kids enough freedom to challenge them, but not enough to overwhelm them, and am always there to protect them if they need it, and they are all confident and well rounded.

I'm not sure what effect an over-protective background will have on any kids, but I don't see how it could be good for them. Is it because most of the parents are older when they had their kids, and they react differently to them? I really would like an insight into this.

p.s. I have only ever left my kids in the car on their own when they were over about 7 or so, with all the windows closed and doors locked, if I needed to pop into a shop or something for a minute or so, and took the keys with me (just incase they want to take it for a spin!) so I think I may also have been a bit shocked to see the baby left in the car with the door open, but I'd hate to think I would be judgmental about someone else doing it without knowing why they did it.