Southwark Plans for Camberwell Old & New Cemeteries.

[Penguin68]

I think if they did lift and deepen private graves then this would be open to legal challenge.

Although that is possible, it is clearly a drafting error in the most recent (2007) legislation - clearly Southwark was excluded from the earlier (1976) legislation because what was being proposed was already enacted for them in 1975. The most recent (2007) legislation, which referred back only to the 1976 Act could be understood to clearly mean that all those now conforming to the 1976 processes (which Southwark had already achieved in 1975) were additionally now covered by the new legislation of 2007. That sort of problem is why we still have a revising chamber (which didn't do its job in this case). I suspect that any judicial review would conclude that Southwark, in following a lift and deepen policy, would be acting consistently with the intent of legislators, if outside the (flawed) coverage of the 2007 act, which should additionally have referred to the 1975 as well as the 1976 Act. There is, as far as I can see, no intent in the 2007 Act to create an Inner London anomaly in Southwark compared with all other London Boroughs. Lift and deepen was chosen so that any survivors (after 75 years) who wished to visit the site of their relatives burials could visit the same site as before, even though that site was now shared (as of course common graves always were). This is still a caring policy, in Southwark as elsewhere in London. The practices (of disinterment and re-burial elsewhere) regarding re-use in common graves in consecrated areas was mandated by the Church of England, who I believe are themselves reconsidering this.

[JoeLeg]

Sue Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> JoeLeg Wrote:s

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

>

> >

> > Coward.

>

>

>

> Probably best to stick to facts rather than make

> personal attacks?

>

> Difficult I know given SSW's general modus

> operandi.

I'd say that is a fact.

They've got a history of being aggressive and rude, you know what Lewis did, and they refuse to answer straight questions. Like, point blank ignoring them. They long ago lost any pretence of being willing to negotiate or debate. It's the refuge of a coward to insult people when they disagree and refuse to listen to dissenting opinion. Why should we be nice to them?

The motto of 'play the ball, not the person' ceases to matter when the other person is being so openly passive-aggressive and unwilling to recognise that other people should be respected.

[ianr]

> Attachments: SN 9 March 2017 (1200 x 1600).jpg (460KB)

There's a legible full version of the article, with additional photographs, at https://www.southwarknews.co.uk/news/southwark-diocese-approves-council-plans-hundreds-new-burial-plots-fought-cemeteries/

[oddlycurious]

As a friends of... group have they elected a chair and so on? Presumably the minutes of their meetings are online for the public? They'll also have a headcount of attendees...

Blanche, I know you don't like answering questions but these are quite important ones.

[Blanche Cameron]

STATEMENT:

CHURCH ASKS COMMONWEALTH WAR GRAVES COMMISSION NOT TO PUT MEMORIALS ON THE GRAVES OF LOCAL POOR WW1 SOLDIER'S GRAVES

Callous Southwark Council wants to sell ?new? burial plots over the graves of forty-eight local First World War soldiers.

And the Church of England has said the Commonwealth War Graves Commission do not need to mark the poor soldiers? graves - to avoid making them seem special and for 'practical purposes', that is, to allow Southwark to bury on top of them.

To read more... http://www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk/48-ww1-soldiers-graves/4593715253

Disrespect for the Nation's soldiers is another reason why Southwark's burial strategy must be stopped.

TODAY'S SOUTHWARK NEWS ONLINE

"Cabinet member reacts to accusations of 'religious discrimination' from Save Southwark Woods campaigners"

https://www.southwarknews.co.uk/news/southwark-diocese-approves-council-plans-hundreds-new-burial-plots-fought-cemeteries/

Blanche Cameron

Friends of Camberwell Cemeteries / Save Southwark Woods Campaign

07731 304 966 [email protected]

[www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk]

Twitter: @southwarkwoods Facebook: Save Southwark Woods

Friends of Camberwell Cemeteries was founded as Save Southwark Woods in January 2015 to stop the destruction of the woods and graves of Camberwell Old and New Cemeteries.

We are for maintaining recreational activities already taking place on cemetery grounds, such as the Recreation Ground and the Allotments.

We are for preserving the cemeteries as Memorial Park Nature Reserves, like Nunhead or Highgate Cemeteries.

[JoeLeg]

Hey Blanche,

This new tactic you're trying with soldiers graves - take it over to ARRSE and see how much support you get!

I'm only one ex-soldier, who thinks you can sod off with that tactic. But go and ask some more. If you're so keen to play the military card maybe see if you can get some military types on board? Otherwise maybe stop thinking you speak for the military.

[taper]

SSW's latest angle on this is a wilful and disingenuous misreading of Petchey's judgement. Quite staggering really. And utterly disreputable.

A link to the full judgement is here:

http://www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk/download/i/mark_dl/u/4013025308/4631603353/Petchey%20Consistory%20Court%20Ruling%20Camberwell%20Cemeteries.pdf

Worth reading as an insightful, balanced and thoughtful analysis of the issues.

Para 45 deals with the war graves issue. Key quote - "CWGC do not object to the proposals and evidently see them as an opportunity to provide additional commemoration of the war dead." I would absolutely trust the CGWC on this matter. They are a brilliant organisation.

Paras 49-54 deal with the tree issue. Pretty damning of SSW.

[oddlycurious]

SSW/FOCC are being interviewed this afternoon by the press in the cemetery around 4.45pm. They've tweeted about it so I'm sure they'd welcome all to the discussion.

[taper]

The Daily Telegraph no less. The WW1 graves angle is pure bull. The most cynical thing they've done yet.

[dbboy]

Only one word to describe the protesters and group = VILE

[Penguin68]

I think ssw is attempting a wonderful obfuscation. They are not (properly) distinguishing between Commonwealth War Graves (I suspect) and the graves of WW1 soldiers who did not die in the war, but subsequently (possibly a lot subsequently). And there are at least 2 (I think) graves of WW1 soldiers who did die in the war, but who were buried privately and not in a War Grave (including I think one VC - but I am very prepared to be contradicted on this). So they are parading an, at best, half truth as a reason for objection. Par for their course, of course, but actually quite disgusting. There is an argument about some individual graves, of course, but the tenet of their objection is pure flim-flam.

[oddlycurious]

I'm curious why SSW won't mention The Telegraph in their tweets - it's almost as if they don't want anyone pointing out their latest outrage is as flimsy as the last.

[Penguin68]

I should add that if I'm right about the VC grave, it is also one in the 'wilded' section and is thus virtually impossible to access, as they others probably are as well. So hardly available for respectful mourning - not that that's ever actually been what these people are about!

[taper]

There are two VC graves in the cemetery. In the wooded area lies William Stanlake, who got his VC at Inkerman during the Crimean War. His old regiment association (the Coldstream Guards?) put a stone up recently and created a clearing, so you can easily access it. The other is Albert Mackenzie (WW1) whose grave forms part of a private plot, near to but not part of the main war grave site and memorial (at the north eastern edge where COC abuts Forest Hill Road). I think he is buried in his mother's plot. So his stone is just in front of hers. Mackenzie survived the war (as did Stanlake). But he died of influenza in 1918. They erected a statue to him in Bermondsey a few years ago.

[Siduhe]

Wow, I just looked at the @SouthwarkWoods twitter feed. Sample tweet: "Read @peterjohn6 @lb_southwark says "Discrimination? Muslims & Jews are free to eat our pork pies like everyone!".

Links to an article where nothing of the kind is said or even hinted at. I don't even know where to start with that.

[Penguin68]

His old regiment association (the Coldstream Guards?) put a stone up recently and created a clearing, so you can easily access it.

Sorry, yes, I did recall this, but not quite correctly - his grave had been lost to the undergrowth but was 'reclaimed' by his regiment. I had not realised there was a second VC as well. Commonwealth War Graves contain graves of those who died in the war or as a direct consequence of it (hence a number of post-war deaths in the grave of combatants who died later in hospital - which also is why there are war graves in UK cemeteries as well as associated with battlefields).

[Blanche Cameron]

TREES BEING CUT ON ONE TREE HILL - 13 SO FAR - DOZENS TO COME - DEMO CALLED SATURDAY 12PM

Emergency Demo For One Tree Hill:

12pm Saturday 11th March

Meet 12pm Camberwell New Cemetery Gates

Brenchley Gardens SE23 3RD

Southwark Council started felling trees on One Tree Hill this morning.

Southwark is denying any trees have yet been felled as they are required to carry out bird and bat roost assessments before beginning. Southwark says "only ground vegetation cleared". More trees to come scarring One Tree Hill for generations.

MORE INFO: http://www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk/demo-for-one-tree-hill/4593718959

Blanche Cameron

Friends of Camberwell Cemeteries / Save Southwark Woods Campaign

07731 304 966 [email protected]

[www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk]

Twitter: @southwarkwoods Facebook: Save Southwark Woods

Friends of Camberwell Cemeteries was founded as Save Southwark Woods in January 2015 to stop the destruction of the woods and graves of Camberwell Old and New Cemeteries.

We are for maintaining recreational activities already taking place on cemetery grounds, such as the Recreation Ground and the Allotments.

We are for preserving the cemeteries as Memorial Park Nature Reserves, like Nunhead or Highgate Cemeteries.

[Penguin68]

Oh, the horror, Southwark is out gardening again.

(Considering the scrub and sapling growth in the Old Cemetery in just 15 years of neglect - with saplings 13-17ft tall, 'scarring One Tree Hill for generations' may be a little rich, but hyperbole is their middle name)

[dbboy]

It is NOT on One Tree Hill. It is NEXT to the hill on the other side of the boundary, that is a HUGE difference from what you state. Can you stop mis-leading people by causing confusion and conjecture.

As the attempt to create racial tensions has seemed to fail you are now bringing our WW1 hero's into your vile argument. STOP as you are discrediting these people who fought 100 years ago for all our freedom.

[Blanche Cameron]

DEMONSTRATION ON ONE TREE HILL

STOP THE CUTTING OF TREES ON ONE TREE HILL

Meet at Camberwell New Cemetery Main Gates

12pm Saturday 11th March

Meet 12pm Camberwell New Cemetery Gates

Brenchley Gardens SE23 3RD

Southwark Council started felling trees on One Tree Hill yesterday, next hoardings, then the tree cutters come in.

Cutting down trees for 121 burial plots

MORE INFO: [www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk]

Blanche Cameron

Friends of Camberwell Cemeteries / Save Southwark Woods Campaign

07731 304 966 [email protected]

[www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk]

Twitter: @southwarkwoods Facebook: Save Southwark Woods

Friends of Camberwell Cemeteries was founded as Save Southwark Woods in January 2015 to stop the destruction of the woods and graves of Camberwell Old and New Cemeteries.

We are for maintaining recreational activities already taking place on cemetery grounds, such as the Recreation Ground and the Allotments.

We are for preserving the cemeteries as Memorial Park Nature Reserves, like Nunhead or Highgate Cemeteries.

[Blanche Cameron]

The Cemeteries cause made the Telegraph today.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/10/war-graves-lost-court-gives-council-permission-bury-civilians/

DEMONSTRATION ON ONE TREE HILL

STOP THE CUTTING OF TREES ON ONE TREE HILL

Meet at Camberwell New Cemetery Main Gates

12pm Saturday 11th March

Meet 12pm Camberwell New Cemetery Gates

Brenchley Gardens SE23 3RD

Southwark Council started felling trees on One Tree Hill yesterday, next hoardings, then the tree cutters come in.

Cutting down trees for 121 burial plots

MORE INFO: [www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk]

Blanche Cameron

Friends of Camberwell Cemeteries / Save Southwark Woods Campaign

07731 304 966 [email protected]

[www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk]

Twitter: @southwarkwoods Facebook: Save Southwark Woods

Friends of Camberwell Cemeteries was founded as Save Southwark Woods in January 2015 to stop the destruction of the woods and graves of Camberwell Old and New Cemeteries.

We are for maintaining recreational activities already taking place on cemetery grounds, such as the Recreation Ground and the Allotments.

We are for preserving the cemeteries as Memorial Park Nature Reserves, like Nunhead or Highgate Cemeteries.

[Blanche Cameron]

The Cemeteries cause made the Telegraph today.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/10/war-graves-lost-court-gives-council-permission-bury-civilians/

DEMONSTRATION ON ONE TREE HILL

STOP THE CUTTING OF TREES ON ONE TREE HILL

Meet at Camberwell New Cemetery Main Gates

12pm Saturday 11th March

Meet 12pm Camberwell New Cemetery Gates

Brenchley Gardens SE23 3RD

Southwark Council started felling trees on One Tree Hill yesterday, next hoardings, then the tree cutters come in.

Cutting down trees for 121 burial plots

About today: [www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk]

Blanche Cameron

Friends of Camberwell Cemeteries / Save Southwark Woods Campaign

07731 304 966 [email protected]

[www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk]

Twitter: @southwarkwoods Facebook: Save Southwark Woods

Friends of Camberwell Cemeteries was founded as Save Southwark Woods in January 2015 to stop the destruction of the woods and graves of Camberwell Old and New Cemeteries.

We are for maintaining recreational activities already taking place on cemetery grounds, such as the Recreation Ground and the Allotments.

We are for preserving the cemeteries as Memorial Park Nature Reserves, like Nunhead or Highgate Cemeteries.

[Penguin68]

So good you had to mention it twice? Repetition does not lead to conviction you know, although the Donald doesn't seem to have realised...

[nxjen]

...

[dbboy]

.