In , out, shake it all about

[malumbu]

Had a shock on Friday when Farage walked into one of my faourite pubs, the Speaker in Westminster.

Did I (a) get into debate with him (b) leave him in peace © have a discussion with my colleagues about the case for or against.

The pub was full of the London metropolitan itellectual types that are hardly his core vote.

Our group had a chat about what it would mean for us, and some rather unfounded talk about lowering the minimum working age (sending kids down the mines/mills), getting rid of health and safety legislation, and compulsory work place smoking (for all).

I am trying to be a bit more informed and challenge some of my views on the econonic disaster leaving would result in. At the end of the day so many good things in terms of pay, rights, safety are down to the EU. And I want to be part of the big picture.

I have no time for the views that we were a better country 50 years ago. We came out of the war leaner and fitter and all credit for that and had a head start on much of Europe in rebuilding. We facked all that up in the 50s and 60 with lack of ambition and innovation (probably not helped as we had our head in the sand).

My level of patriotism goes as far as supporting my national sporting teams. Not a lot futher.

[Loz]

DulwichFox Wrote:

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> Blah Blah Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> > It's not perfect, but millions of jobs rely on it.

> > It would be lunacy to leave.

>

> Jobs for who.. ? People who will be happy to work

> for ?3.50 an hour.. ..or less.

Over 20% of our GDP is the financial industry and I think that will be the main loser. Leaving the EU will make quite a few institutions rethink where they want to base their operations. Frankfurt are already making preparation to make a move on them should Brexit come about.

The knock on effect, especially in London, will be significant. How many non-financial jobs, from couriers to sandwich shops, are reliant on a healthy square mile?

[KirstyH]

Boris, FFS.

Don't forget Brexit begets Scexit, or makes it far more likely. The SNP manifesto at the 2015 election sought a double threshold to leave - UK wide plus all the individual nations separately. The whole thing about the Scottish Ref that many here appeared to miss is that - at the point of voting - it becomes the risk you are prepared to take that something [for some people, anything] is better than what you have at present. With the IndyRef the entire enterprise had a foundation of a positive vision of what Scotland could be *whether you agreed or not*.

There is none around Brexit, only negativity, and idea that some version of 'Brussels' is all crap and some, frankly archaic, view about 'taking control', of what exactly - the waves? What is it people think they would most like to get rid of from Brussels? Can we admit what we don't know, or is it going to be sloganeering? And FYI the coal mines shut under Thatcher, not because of Brussels policy on climate change; an accelerated shut down of UK coal-fired power stations will happen anyway, I estimate with or without air pollution rules, but of course some would rather pollute their kids. That's the point, who's version of Britain do you get with a Brexit?

[DulwichFox]

KirstyH Wrote:

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> Boris, FFS.

>

> Don't forget Brexit begets Scexit, or makes it far

> more likely. The SNP manifesto at the 2015

> election sought a double threshold to leave - UK

> wide plus all the individual nations separately.

> The whole thing about the Scottish Ref that many

> here appeared to miss is that - at the point of

> voting - it becomes the risk you are prepared to

> take that something is better than what you have

> at present. With the IndyRef the entire

> enterprise had a foundation of a positive vision

> of what Scotland could be *whether you agreed or

> not*.

>

> There is none around Brexit, only negativity, and

> idea that some version of 'Brussels' is all crap

> and some, frankly archaic, view about 'taking

> control', of what exactly - the waves? What is it

> people think they would most like to get rid of

> from Brussels? Can we admit what we don't know, or

> is it going to be sloganeering? And FYI the coal

> mines shut under Thatcher, not because of Brussels

> policy on climate change; an accelerated shut down

> of UK coal-fired power stations will happen

> anyway, I estimate with or without air pollution

> rules, but of course some would rather pollute

> their kids. That's the point, who's version of

> Britain do you get with a Brexit?

Britain STILL depends on coal for 40% of its electricity - but now it is making a Russian mine owner hugely rich, not us

Read more: http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-2613948/Britain-STILL-depends-coal-40-electricity.html#ixzz40pUmBARp

DulwichFox

[Loz]

DulwichFox Wrote:

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> Britain STILL depends on coal for 40% of its

> electricity - but now it is making a Russian mine

> owner hugely rich, not us

If we left the EU, that would not change one iota.

[malumbu]

Actually I've now changed my mind slightly.

(1) Britain had an energy policy in the 50s and 60s and were leading the world. Sadly it was down hill from the late 70s onwards as we embraced the 'market' - that is the reason (a) we are still dependant in part on coal (as well as wasting so much natural gas) (b) we want the cheapest source of supply.

Without researching I expect that the EU watered down some of the environmental regulations that would further discourage the use of this dirty evil stuff. Nobody who posts on this forum would ever want to work down a pit.

(2) The EU outlawed methylene choloride paint strippers. I bought the last can ever on sale. And I have kept it for a precious time. Sadly it has coroded through the tin and all evapourated. And why was it banned? Because a few silly people died each year from aphixiation. Just have a label and say don't use it to clean old bath tubs unless you are working outside.

Still wont change my mind though.

The power of Russia - a spurious argument, we cowtowed with the yanks to use market economics as a lever to end communism. And what did we get - another evil single party state (with heaps of natural resources). Better tackled by a united EU rather than a sovereign state.

[KirstyH]

The Tories announced an intent to end coal use in UK electricity generation by 2025, last November. This goal has nothing to do with the EU.

FYI - Boris also having a heartfelt moment (not a very long moment) on Scotland, in his own words:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/11080893/Scottish-independence-Decapitate-Britain-and-we-kill-off-the-greatest-political-union-ever.html

[Earl Aelfheah]

if we want to continue trading freely I n Europe, we'll have to play by the same rules and regulations as everyone else. people seem t think that we can leave, put up all kinds of barriers to trade and free movement of goods and labour, without our competitors doing the same, because you know, we're special. It's childish and unrealistic. We live in a globalised world. We're not going to opt out and find ourselves back in the 50s. The world well still be the same as the day before, we'll just be a bit more irrelevant and have a bit less influence.

[Earl Aelfheah]

Sorry for the typos in on my phone

[Loz]

rahrahrah Wrote:

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> The world well still be the same as the day before, we'll just be a bit more irrelevant

> and have a bit less influence.

This pretty much sums up my view on leaving the EU - gain close to nothing, lose quite a lot.

The main immediate change is the loss of free movement in Europe - some will see that as a gain, some will see it as a loss. Other than that, most of the changes seen by the Brixiters seem to be more hopes and dreams than any actual reality.

[Louisa]

Without hopes and dreams what are we? Nothing. Unlike some of the negative comments above, I personally have a positive view of this country. Yes, not very fashionable, granted, but why not vote for hope rather than scaremonger? I see leaving a centralised institution as a step forward, a chance to change things for the better, and yes, embrace democracy. You remember what that word means anyone?

If the Tories get their way (and sidelined New Labour), we will end up an irrelevant nation state in a union of increasing members, with a falling influence on world affairs and a gradually declining percentage of world economic output. Is that what you all want for your kids? Just to keep Cameron and his political chums happy and in work for the coming decades. Thank god Boris has done the right thing, for once.

Louisa.

[malumbu]

Question I have is wtf we are having a referendum in the first place. It didn't bother me and it was only my mate Farage stirring things up that this happened.

They had a really nice referendum in Ireland, with an even nicer outcome

https://static-secure.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2015/5/18/1431950742563/c509c6a1-ab75-4367-8908-13f623eaf26a-bestSizeAvailable.jpeg

That makes me feel good. Out one doesn't.

[Blah Blah]

Quite malumbu. Farage is completely to blame for ths one, strange as most of his party rely on the EU for their jobs. Completely agree rahrah. We are not special and will lose far more than we gain outside of the EU.

Your second paragraph Louisa are the reasons why we should STAY in Europe. Being out of the EU is guaranteed to give us NO input into EU affairs. Declining output has nothing to do with membership of the EU but the emerging markets being able to undercut our production costs. We have ?200bn worth of exports to the EU annually. Membership provides us with that major market, the value of which far exceeds the 7bn it costs us annually.

Camerons chums only want out so they they don't have to give employees or unions, or anyone any rights whatsoever. They don't want any free market regulation. So you are arguing for something that will only make the Tory chums and their friends richer. We will still have a government who hate the poor and low waged.

As for Boris, he's a clown - with no skills in international diplomacy whatsoever.

[*Bob*]

Seems a lot of people out there are confusing someone who is 'not as stupid as they look' with someone who might be fit to run the country.

[apbremer]

So Blah Blah will you be quite so keen on your wretched EU whe 85m. Turks can come and live here on benefits in five years time??

[Otta]

I am no fan of Farage or his party, but to say he's totally "to blame" for this one seems to rather miss the point that a lot of people have voted for his party because they feel this is the single most important issue to them. Much as I am con earned about the potential result, we desperately need this referendum. Had Labour gotten in and refused to hold one they'd have been slaughtered for it.

[Otta]

*Bob* Wrote:

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> Seems a lot of people out there are confusing

> someone who is 'not as stupid as they look' with

> someone who might be fit to run the country.

Assuming this is about Bozza, I personally think he's a very very clever man who knows how to play a part. He's a dangerous bastard.

[maxxi]

So the 'debate' so far has run along expected lines;

A. "Look at the wonderful people on our side and the nasty stupid ones on yours! THAT'S why you should vote our way!"

B. "Your arguments are ridiculous, you are an idiot, you are wrong! Everyone who thinks your way is the same."

C (hardly to be seen) I think 'x' but understand why you think 'y'. I see what you say and rather than take page after mind numbingly dull page trying to shoot you down and show why I am best I will just put my own argument/pov. My reasons for my choice (atm) are...

[Louisa]

Blah Blah Wrote:

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> Quite malumbu. Farage is completely to blame for

> ths one, strange as most of his party rely on the

> EU for their jobs. Completely agree rahrah.

Wrong wrong and wrong again. Farage is not 'to blame', he is a symptom of a bigger problem which is systemic in this country. Lots of us are anti EU because it stands against our principles of democracy and internationalism. The EU is a closed shop for members only, as you've already confirmed in earlier statements. As a nation, this issue has been bubbling away for decades now, so to blame it on some madcap right wingers is short sighted. I also don't think Farage & Co give two hoots about losing their EU jobs, the whole point of their party is to get us out of the EU is it not?

> Your second paragraph Louisa are the reasons why

> we should STAY in Europe.

If you say so. For me, and people who think like me, the EU in its present form is absolutely every reason why getting out is the only hope we have as a country. If we remain we will be in a declining over regulated market place, dominated by the Germans and French, with us continually sidelined. Leaving the EU will open up a bigger market place and may just encourage growth in the poorer regions where forty plus years of membership of this organisation has done zilch for the poorest parts of our country.

Maybe we don't want input into EU affairs, maybe we would rather create our own human rights legislation, control our own borders, work out who we want to trade with etc etc. The 200bn of trade deals will not stop, the trade tariffs are irrelevant because the money we spend on membership (7bn?) will more than make up for any tariffs charged (not that the EU would charge one of the largest economies in Europe if they had a brain between them, we aren't Norway or Switzerland, there's 60 million plus of us). Your whole line of attack on this is flawed Blah.

Louisa.

[*Bob*]

Otta Wrote:

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> Assuming this is about Bozza, I personally think

> he's a very very clever man who knows how to play

> a part. He's a dangerous bastard.

I disagree on that. He is only - quite literally - 'not as stupid as he looks'.

He plays a fine game though - but (I agree with Blah Blah) it's only a game you can play with a domestic audience.

[Blah Blah]

apbremer Wrote:

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> So Blah Blah will you be quite so keen on your

> wretched EU whe 85m. Turks can come and live here

> on benefits in five years time??

Turkey will never be allowed to join the EU while they continue to have poor human rights and harass the kurds. It's not going to happen.

I also have a higher opinion of Turkish people than that too. There are already Turkish people living in the UK and most of them work. And they said the same about Rumamia and Bulgaria - they'll all come here and soak up our benefits! Didn't happen did it?

[Blah Blah]

Louisa, you know nothing about tariffs if you really think 7bn saved will make up for the tariffs those companies will have to pay to continue trading. And for the umpteenth time, WE ALREADY TRADE WITH THE REST OF THE WORLD - the EU does not stop us from doing that.

'not that the EU would charge one of the largest economies in Europe if they had a brain between them, we aren't Norway or Switzerland'

HA HA HA - really???? YOU posted that both those countries export more than the UK to the EU, and the EU charges them for the privilege. Get real Louisa - we are not an Empire anymore. To do ANY kind of trade with the EU we will still have to pay money to them and adopt EU rules that we will have no say in, just as both Switzerland and Norway have to. That is the flaw in YOUR argument.

[Blah Blah]

To trade with the EU, we would have to pay around ?2bn a year to them, we'd have to abide by a third of EU regulations including the free movement of people. AND we would have no say in reforming any of those regulations.

And tariffs could cost between ?18bn and ?50bn to UK exporters.

Good report and analysis in this document.

http://cep.lse.ac.uk/pubs/download/pa016.pdf#page=3

So let's please stop with this nonsense that the EU will treat us any differently than other countries that trade with the EU

[apbremer]

Blah Blah you should read the news.

Our masters in Brussels have already, without any consultation apart from chatting to that daft Old Bag Merkel, promised EU membership to Turkey if they restrain the hordes of Syrian migrants which said Merkel welcomed into Europe, again with no agreement from any other EU vassal states.

There are comparatively few Turks here now so do you not think that the odd few million might make a difference?

Have recently talked to a Midlands lorry driver. Earns ?28000 pa but is being replaced by a Pole on ?15,000pa. Mortgage and children. He is not as privileged and happy as you with the EU. Apparently this is happening wholesale as firms can no longer compete with English drivers. Cannot understand that Old Fool Corbyn supporting the whole rotten edifice as workers' wages are being forced down by mass migration here from poor countries, although this probably does not affect him in his Islington bubble.

[Jeremy]

In what way is Boris "very clever"? I'm sure he exaggerates elements of his personality to influence people, but that doesn't make him some sort of evil genius. It just makes him a politician.