France leads the way on the Burka

[Izodia]

Mick Mac Wrote:

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> Izodia Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > France is a catholic country and will have to

> > address the nun issue in the same way if it

> forces

> > through these changes for muslims.

> >

> >

> > Actually France is a secular country.

>

>

>

> In terms of a religious majority - France is a

> Catholic country.

Agreed that the majority of French are catholic.

Just giving a little information on how France is able to legislate on religous dress and symbols in a way that the UK can't.

For my own personal opinion, I'm not keen on burkas at all. As woman, it feels repressive. But is it right to ban them? I'm not sure.

[Narnia]

So long as a person who comes to live here abides by the laws of the land, there is no reason for them to have to conform to the ways of the locals. In a lot of countries the current locals were one time invaders if you go back far enough.

[Ted Max]

"We object to people telling women they have to dress a certain way. So we're going to counter that by telling these women that they have to dress a certain way."

[Ted Max]

"My hangover is giving me a headache. If I take an aspirin I won't get any more hangovers."

[RosieH]

Ted Max Wrote:

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> "We object to people telling women they have to

> dress a certain way. So we're going to counter

> that by telling these women that they have to

> dress a certain way."

I agree to a certain extent Ted, but I don't think it's that simple. Yes, it seems absolutely counter-intuitive, and I would resent the idea of the state telling me what to wear.

But I also agree with Izodia - I do think the Burka is repressive and perhaps state intervention, and enshrining it in law gives certain women a chance to take it off, where otherwise they wouldn't have the opportunity.

[Izodia]

Ted Max Wrote:

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> "We object to people telling women they have to

> dress a certain way. So we're going to counter

> that by telling these women that they have to

> dress a certain way."

Yes, that's it. That's what bugs me about the idea of banning it.

[????]

Politicians in France always strike me as among the worst for "We know what's best for you plebs" Libertie, Fratenetie etc...bring on further european integration *sighs*

[computedshorty]

?

[candj]

I'm unclear about what France is banning - the Burka or the hijab (sp?, the head scarf) or both. I feel the burka has over time come to symbolise, at least to the west, oppression of women (ie, Afghanistan/Pakistan- where women don't have the same rights, access to education, etc) whereas the head scarf is more a way of life and I don't know why anyone would find it so offensive and go so far as to ban it. Either way, it sends a terrible message to the Muslim world and subsequently their own population and will only further marginalise this segment of their society. But then it wouldn't be the first time the French Government showed disloyalty to their own people.

[Ted Max]

Sciences-Po, innit, Quids.

As to RosieH's point - it's a valid one, but you are sacrificing the wishes and even beliefs of those who may want to wear it for the liberty of those who don't.

And that may be worth doing - it may even send a clear signal as to what the majority deems unacceptable - and it's tempting to want to tell those small minded fuckoes who twist Islamic thought in this way to take a hike. But where does that approach get you?

Oh I don't know. You can see why I don't post in the Drawing Room. I feel like the Fast Show character in the pub who can never make his mind up.

[silverfox]

As I understand this it is part of a bigger debate going on in France as to what it is to be French. It's about multiculturalism and inclusion. There is also a big difference between France and the UK between the idea of the public and private realms. In France the street isn't the public sphere but when you enter official buildings and institutions and presumably shops, ie where thhe public are expected to engage as citizens.

So, it is possible they will ban the burka in public meaning it can be worn in the streets but the face has to exposed in public spaces.

That aside, it is possible some of these women are so ugly that when they expose their faces the public will clamour for them to cover themselves up again.

[Brendan]

Let's just ban France and have done with it.

[legalbeagle]

Chacun a son gout?

Now that's ironic!

[brum]

Who are we to dictate to anyone else in our society what to wear or what not to wear? If a person wears a garment for religious reasons, then so what? If the burka alone is prohibited then it is discriminatory. It will also marginalise a section of society that already feels unfairly treated.

When we say that the burka is demeaning to women, we are applying our own predudices. As I said in my previous post, the argument over what is deemed as demeaning can easily be used for garments such as mini skirts. And I for one would not wish those to be banned ;-)

[mockney piers]

All the usual misapprehensions on display. Burkah has nowt to do with Islam, it's origin is culturally Arabian, not religious as such, Islam merely requests modesty of women which is hugely open to interpretation. Modern thinkers think it's merely about behaviour, most are happy enough with a nijab to cover the hair.

My instinct is also to think it's repressive, but women often find it empowering, and many among the younger generation, growing up with lots of hostility and islamophobia around, and the likes of politicians (or even online commenters) telling them they can't, they positively embrace it even in modern islamic or secular families.

Nothing like a good 'fuck you' from the young I reckon, so to that extent I can see where they're coming from.

My favourite was definitely "Should a group of these ladies mug a person how would you pick out the assailent(sic)."

Genius; a common problem these roving gangs of burkah clad muggers!!

Like Ted and Izodia I don't like people telling other people what to do, so I'm against any sort of legislation. And what the hell does doing things like the British involve anyway, the moment someone defines it then I'll start listening to arguments about imposing it on anyone. No reason why you have to show your upper lips when keeping them stiff after all; I reckon the Victorians would probably have thoroughly approved.

And yes many French are catholic (god knows they weren't very nice to their protestants...or cathars for that matter) but it's resolutely a secular country. I'm pretty sure all religious symbols are banned from schools, not just veils of various ilk.

But ultimately Brendan has it...ban France ;-)

[mockney piers]

Ooh, and what Brum said ^ ^

Well said that man.

[Brendan]

The problem with France is that it is too close to England. And you can take that either way you like.

[Huggers]

what about if you were going to a fancy dress party?

[Brendan]

Personally I'd go as Switzerland.

[david_carnell]

Orthodox Jews (such as those around the Stamford Hill area) force/ask politely that women cover their hair too. Normally this is with a wig and then a scarf. Double protection.

Is anyone calling for this to be banned in the name of repression of women?

[RosieH]

Frankly I bloody would David.

[Narnia]

Is there not a fear that if France was to implement a law such as this that some women would be more repressed than they currently are and would never go out in public due to instructions given to them by their husbands/religious leaders?

How do they get through security at airports wearing this garb?

[atila the gooner]

I can see both sides of the argument here. I can see the security aspect and also the freedom of choice for the individual when it comes to dress.Tough one to call.

[Loz]

My libertarian streak says that people should be able to dress as they like. (So long as it is as *they* like, rather than their husband/family).

My fairness side says that if you can't wear a motorbike helmet in a bank or wear a hoody in a shopping centre because it covers your face, then the burka should also be subject to a similar rule. Allegedly (as I know little of Islam) it is not a religious requirement. It a just a statement of faith, rather like a Christian wearing a cross (c.f. the recent issue with the lady working for BA).

Fully willing to be corrected on that last point by anyone who knows.

[HAL9000]

Loz Wrote:

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> ... Allegedly (as I know little of Islam) it is

> not a religious requirement. It a just a

> statement of faith, rather like a Christian

> wearing a cross (c.f. the recent issue with the

> lady working for BA).

>

> Fully willing to be corrected on that last point

> by anyone who knows.

Islam, in common with Christianity and Judaism, is subject to interpretation. Some interpretations of Islam believe (that it is God's will) that women should be covered from head to foot in public (hence the burka) whilst other interpretations adopt the early Christian and Jewish practice of covering the head only.