Inequality in Britain

[SeanMacGabhann]

Brendan - between here and facebook you are on FIRE today!

re: SteveT's points. yes it's all very well saying so many people were "happy" with holes in socks and trousers and all the rest of it (the reality is of course they weren't) but things are manageable when people are in things together. When the boat sails away leaving you on the island, there isn't any good in someone holding up a banner from the boat saying "What's the matter?? You were happy enough on the island before!!"

Maybe charities should go to Haiti and instead of giving them food and shelter they should tell them off and say "I don't know what you are crying about - you should go to Somalia and see how they live!!"

[Brendan]

The internet has given me a voice Sean and I have chosen to use that voice to shove my dissenting opinion down the throat of anyone unfortunate enough to read it. ;-)

That's equality for you.

[SteveT]

I briefly visited Rugby School (working there not studying) and I went into the science lab which looked like something out of Dickens.

The state secondary school which I attended had far more equipment and was far superior fitted out for that subject.

The main distinction when the classes were in action was the strict discipline and excellent behaviour by the students at Rugby where as at my own school they were barely keeping it together by that time.

[????]

As someone else said earlier Social Mobility is more important in my opinion and that means equality of opportunity...you can start to make a hypothesis that some aspects of 'equality' as it is vaguely expressed by the left, especially those on the left who are already in a comfortable position but scared of competition (champagne with your socialism darling) actually preserves the status quo..... and I may when I can be arsed

[SeanMacGabhann]

You started to make that hypothesis young quids but didn't finish it

[Jeremy]

I'm broadly in agreement with quids, social mobility is key.

Equality is hard to quantify when there is a vast disparity in what people are willing to put in.

[SeanMacGabhann]

So if everyone puts in the effort they will be rewarded?

I

don't

think

so

[Brendan]

You guys are kinda talking about the same things. Equality is really about equal access to opportunity (call it social mobility if you like).

Trouble is that in the world we have inherited, access to opportunity is reliant almost exclusively on wealth, the distribution of which is grossly unequal.

[Jeremy]

Probably not. But not everyone puts in the same amount of effort, so you can't measure it.

It's not all about effort either. Some people have the ability to do jobs which are more beneficial to society than others. Should a bin man be rewarded equally to a heart surgeon? Of course not.

What we need to ensure is that anyone who has the ability and drive to become a surgeon has the opportunity to do so. While also making sure that as many people as possible have a decent standard of living.

[Brendan]

Jeremy Wrote:

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> It's not all about effort either. Some people have

> the ability to do jobs which are more beneficial

> to society than others. Should a bin man be

> rewarded equally to a heart surgeon? Of course

> not.

No, of course not. But should their children both have access to the same standard of education?

[Jeremy]

Of course.

I don't think I have any friends who went to private school, and most of are getting along just fine. Unfortunately times are changing though...

[Brendan]

And right there we have the problem.

[david_carnell]

Jeremy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Probably not. But not everyone puts in the same

> amount of effort, so you can't measure it.

>

> It's not all about effort either. Some people have

> the ability to do jobs which are more beneficial

> to society than others. Should a bin man be

> rewarded equally to a heart surgeon? Of course

> not.

I'm being a little flippant but not that much:

Do you know who I think performs the more socially useful job out of those two? Well I know which one I'd miss first if both disappeared. Chances of me needing a heart surgeon - 100/1 at worst I should think. Chances of me needing my rubbish collected and the associated problems (such as disease) if it weren't collected. 100%.

I'm not suggesting that they are equally skillful r even deserve the same salary but if you're talking about professions and their social worth/usefulness then refuse collectors come pretty high in my book.

[Brendan]

On a more practical day to day point though it is also worth acknowledging that a wide wealth gap restricts access to fundamentals. In Britain, a country awash with consumer goods and food, it is manifest in things like education and property. But it?s the same principles that make it difficult for people in India or Brazil to feed their children.

[Brendan]

david_carnell Wrote:

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> if you're

> talking about professions and their social

> worth/usefulness then refuse collectors come

> pretty high in my book.

Commie!

[Ladymuck]

Guess that makes me a commie too then Brendan as I happen to agree with DC.

[Ladymuck]

Found this article...it's a little old, but interesting and pertinent to this discussion: http://careers.guardian.co.uk/careers-blog/the-social-worth-of-your-job-harry-freedman

[Brendan]

Ah you see what I was doing there was lampooning the neo-con tendency to brand anything vaguely approaching fair recognition of peoples' worth as communist or socialist whilst hopefully also making the reader question the fact that we immediately treat the term communist as negative without much forethought as to why.

I thought just saying, ?Commie!? was far more succinct.

[Jeremy]

I'm going to bow out of this one. Equality of opportunity - yes please. Equality of salary - no thanks.

[Brendan]

What about remuneration on the grounds of social worth rather than social standing?

Although personally I may be shooting myself in the foot with that one.

[david_carnell]

Jeremy - stay.

I'm not suggesting that they are equally skillful or even deserve the same salary

No-one is arguing for equality of outcome - merely redressing the balance. And this comes from me and Brendan....we have useless jobs! We'd be penniless.

If you're in favour of social mobility, how would you go about ensuring it occurs. And how would you measure it?

[SeanMacGabhann]

Jeremy - I don't think anyone is arguing for equality of pay

[Jeremy]

OK... I'll get reeled in again...

> What about remuneration on the grounds of social worth rather than social standing?

It's totally objective and impossible to measure. You could argue that the entrepreneur who brings in ??? to the economy is benefitting society and deserves to be richly rewarded.

> If you're in favour of social mobility, how would you go about ensuring it occurs

I dunno. Maybe shift more public funds into education (raise taxes if necessary). Free university education. Fast-track programmes for gifted students across the board. Tougher on juvenile crime. The biggest challenge would be the kids whose parents are seemingly not interested in their children's upbringing or education.

[Brendan]

It couldn?t happen in a free market anyway. The point is supply and demand. No matter how important a job is if there are lots of people willing and able to do it, it will be lower paid than one which only a handful of people are capable of doing.

The issue people are shouting about in Britain at the moment is the already large and growing gap between the rich and poor. This can be addressed in a properly managed country.

[Ladymuck]

Brendan Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The issue people are shouting about in Britain at

> the moment is the already large and growing gap

> between the rich and poor. This can be addressed

> in a properly managed country.

Yes, I'm sure that it can but the will needs to be there. People in general pay lip service to poverty, lack of equal opportunity, social immobility and the like, in reality they do not appear to give a monkey's about the plight of the poor.