4yr old and speech

[midivydale]

Me again. My son (just turned 4) still has some pronounication issues, the usual tricky sounds like th, ch, sh and sometimes y ie lellow for yellow. His speech is otherwise excellent I have been told. He has a great vocab, grammar fine etc. But he just can not say certain sounds.

At what point should I progress with some speech therapy for him? Is there a certain age at which he "should" be able to pronounce these sounds after which I need to intervene? His nursery is not worried as they can clearly understand him, his friends understand him and he doesnt suffer any other language delays but I dont want to delay getting him help if he needs it.

Last autumn I took him to the excellent chatter time session at Bessemer Grange and the girl there said not to worry (at that time) and that those particular sounds were often the last to fall into place and that as long as he could be understood no intervention was needed at that time.

At what point does that change? School? I have tried to practice but he just keeps saying the same sounds ie ssssssop for shop and outs for outch when he hurts himself. Any ideas on how I can help him?

He did if this is relevant have tounge tie at birth which we for various reasons did not correct. Could that be a cause? We were also not strict enough with the dummy and did not remove it until he was over 2 (although he was not allowed it during day).

[goldilocks]

Can you ask nursery to refer him for speech therapy? We had similar with my son and like you had been not worrying until he was around 4. He had specific issues with certain sounds but otherwise his vocab was fantastic (has since been assessed as about 3 years above his actual age so it isn't a comprehension thing). We saw SALT at Townley road for a while which did help. Once he started school he had a term of sessions with their speech therapist and the change has been totally amazing, so maybe there is an age and being ready to do it element too. He pretty much there on all words now - apart from ones that you wouldn't necessarily expect at his age. I pushed it just before school as I was worried that it would be increasingly frustrating for him if he wasn't clearly understood.

Happy to PM if you'd like more info though. He also had t tie - SALT didn't think this would be the reason, I have my suspicions though...

[snowboarder]

My youngest son was referred for SALT by his nursery when he was 3 - his speech was good but he couldn't pronounce 'C' (he pronounced it as 't' - an issue when your name begins with 'c'!) and there were a few others - y for l and weird sounds happened when blending some of the sounds. The SALT has been fairly minimal and he's literally in the last couple of months hugely improved, since starting school. His school highlighted some worries when he first started but now you really couldn't tell anything was amiss. I think as well as practising the sounds at school and nursery he just became more aware that he was saying sounds differently. The SALT did say they didn't think there was any physical reason for the problem.

[snowboarder]

Ps my son didn't have a tongue tie but (still does) suck his thumb. I've no idea if that affects speech though.

[midivydale]

Thanks everyone, we have an appointment with GP on Friday for his reflux/food allergies so will ask her if she can refer him. Does anyone know if you can self refer to SALT?

[Medusa]

Not on the NHS, I don't think.

Unless things have changed dramatically (which I very much doubt, in view of government cuts) I would have low expectations of SALT. The bar is set very low (ie children with obvious speech issues/delay may well still meet basic criteria) and certain things, eg lisps, are not addressed at all.

Caveat: I speak from slightly bitter experience. My grievance is with the service that individual SALTs are funded to provide, obviously, nothing more personal than that.

[midivydale]

Thanks everyone. I phoned the HV about it today who is lovely and very helpful. She said that as long as he is making himself understood and nursery does not have any concerns then we would be unlikely to be seen on the NHS. She suggested that we go back to the chatter time sessions which I might very well do as I found them helpful with suggestions on how we can practice at home to help him. Of course, it all comes down to resources even at chattertime sessions. When we were there last time there were a lot of children there with very severe speech difficulties and some were completely non verbal so of course the therapists need to devote their time for those most in need, which is as it should be.

I will look into private options too as I really want to get this sorted for him. Please feel free to point me in the right direction if you have any experience. As English is not my first language I do not really know all the helpful rhymes etc to help with the sounds, I can do with some pointers generally. If it was my first language I would be more confident in how to best help him.

When speaking to him this morning in English, I do wonder if some (but not all) is down to the South London accent he is picking up? "fink" instead of think, "free" for three, "muvver" instead of mother etc...

He sounds like a mini Mitchell from East Enders... Oh dear

[mybaby178]

Hi if you are going down the private route you could try Sunshine House on Peckhsm Road, Camberwell

I don't have any direct experience but it's purpose is speech and language therapy both private and nhs.

[montassa]

we went to lovetocommunicate

http://www.lovetocommunicate.co.uk/

Ciara was amazing with our three year old.

[Anna M]

Hello

Nothing technical to add, just to say my four-year old says 'lellow' too and confuses instances of 'f' and 'th', or 'th' and 'v' and so on - I noticed my older child did this too until they started phonics in reception (he even used to say 'cam I?' instead of 'can I?' until then. At the point where they were focussing on sounds and how you make them, he seemed to realise that certain letters or phonemes were pronounced a certain way and it ironed itself out.

[Pickle]

Just wanted to add some reassurance that what you describe sounds very normal for a 4 year old. My 4 year old is the same, her siblings were at the same age, and they speak properly now with no intervention.

I think the South London accent has an influence, I have noticed many changes in my little girls pronunciation since she started nursery in September (dropping t's being the prime example).

[theratprincess]

My son has been blocks of weekly sessions at Rye Oak with a Sunshine House SALT, since he was 3 ? or so because whilst his grammar and vocab was fine, he was unintelligible due to delayed speech sounds (f, v, l, r). You are right - there are certain sounds that they should be able to make by a certain age.

Our son?s nursery first raised concerns with us and we then self-referred to Sunshine House (you can just call them and ask for a form). Sunshine House did an initial assessment quite quickly and then there was quite a wait for the actual sessions. In the mean time, we got a local private SALT Jen Warwick to write a report for us, so we could better understand what was going on. He is now in Year 1 (Ivydale) and since Reception has had daily one on one time with the class teaching assistant/teacher so they can do the speech work with him, which is overseen by the school?s SALT. He is now nearly 6 and his speech is fine and perfectly intelligible and I think we will be signed off by his SALT very soon.

If you have concerns, I would definitely follow up and not leave it. A good starting point would be to look at the resources on here http://www.talkingpoint.org.uk/. They also offer a free phone call with a SALT, so you can talk through your concerns.

The main thing to do is not to correct the mispronunciations, but to consistently keep modelling the correct sound back.

Good luck!

[midivydale]

Thank you all, very interesting and reassuring to hear others have been through similar so thank you for sharing. Very good point about not correcting him but model the right version back, thank you for the reminder. In my first language there are certain sounds that almost always take longer to learn and it makes sense of course that it would be the same in English. I just was not sure what those sounds were. Having done some reading (thanks for the links above) it seems not to be unusual to still struggle with the sounds he does when you have just turned 4.

I have found some great youtube videos with rhymes that I can help him with at home and will call SALT for advice as well. Thanks everyone.

[prit]

I would say not to worry yet. My son had BIG issues with pronunciation - until about 3-4, milk was 'dok' and l/r/w were all pronounced 'w' until 5 or so.

We did some practice at home of saying L but apart from that everything came right by itself..I think partly to do with learning to read and realising these letters had distinct sounds. His Rs have only come right since turning 6 - but now he's got no issues.

[kamath]

I wouldn't worry especially if his nursery are saying they understand him and have no concerns. My son had speech therapy when he was four as his nursery found it difficult to understand what he was telling them. He was talking about dinosaurs a lot of the time (and some had very long names !) I don't think the speech therapy helped him much and in the end made him more aware that he had difficultly with some sounds. The biggest change I noticed was when he started school - within the first term his speech improved lots. I think being around other children and all the phonics and learning to read that they do helped him so much . I honestly think don't worry.

[goldilocks]

Having re read your original post and some of the subsequent ones, the sounds you mention are some of the later ones anyway. Most of those are ones that SALTs wouldn't expect to be clear until around 5/6. R /l and th are all later sounds (and as you say - th in south London - maybe never...). As long as he can make himself understood and isn't frustrated by his speech I'd consider just seeing how he goes. To the extent its letters like c/g/y that are a problem, these should be in place by around 4 - 4.5 apparently so if they're already in place it sounds fine.

In terms of exercises the key thing is modelling the speech correctly - so if he says I saw a 'wabbit' - you say. oh yes, a rabbit - etc. Dont' correct, but just keep saying the word correctly and the theory is it will sink in. Also think phonics at school does generally help.

[canela]

both of mine had similar issues which sorted themselves out when they were 6/7ish. both were recommended to see speech therapists, it never happened and it was all fine in the end. we did a bit of support at home but not much to be honest. just picked up one or two sounds and corrected. i think 4 is still really normal for this kind of thing, though good to be aware.

[minder]

He is still very young and I quite take offence at quoting the South London dialogue as a factor in speech development!

Your post this morning ending "Fanks" wasn't necessary!

[midivydale]

Ok Minder. I did not mean to cause offense and apologies if doing so. The point I was trying to make was that as a foreign person myself I was unsure what was due to accent and what was down to his lack of ability to pronounce the sound in question. My son has alot of regional influences in his speech (At home he hears my language, a midlands accent and patois, as well as London accents at nursery). As a foreginer myself, I am trying to help my 4 year old make sense of all this, and get him help if he needs it.

I have amended the post that caused you offense and trust that this thread can remain on topic which was to help a 4 yr old with his speech development. Thanks

[midivydale]

Edited as posted in the wrong thread.

[Convex]

I was unsure what was due to accent and what was down to his lack of ability to pronounce the sound in question.

i thought this came across quite clearly! but then i too am foreign!

[midivydale]

Thought about this thread the other day as several of the sounds seem to have fallen into place over the last few weeks. Almost over night he learned sh and ch, which has made a big difference. There are hardly any sounds left now that he cant say. He just needed abit more time.

[Convex]

thats great. we still have 'lellow' plus a lot of other random sounds eg 'toggler' instead of 'toddler' but i guess they will all fall into place.

[etta166]

Often I think that children can hear the right sound, just not themselves saying it wrong. I can distinctly remember this myself at around 6 or 7, and being very surprised that everyone thought I had a lisp. I just couldn't hear myself doing it, though I could hear the sounds "s" and "th", and could say "s" once I was prompted to think about it. My middle child always made me laugh, too, when saying "it's 'Y' for Lellow". And now, almost all her sounds come out correctly. It just takes some of us a bit longer to get tiger than others.

[midivydale]

Ha, thats what mini ivy says, he proudly states "Y for lellow".

One poster made me think when she said that the speech therapist has made her child aware that he had pronounciation issues and that is what made me hold off progressing down that route. I feel more reassured now that some more sounds are falling into place. Will pick this up with school if there are concerns at that stage.