Problem with the platform 'equipment' apparently - though the mind boggles as East Dulwich is barely a station, nevermind one with 'equipment'. Apparently you can join the service at North Dulwich or Peckham Rye.
Southbound services will be stopping at East Dulwich.
Trains towards London Bridge not stopping at East Dulwich today!
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heartblock
- Posts: 1462
- Joined: 03 Jul 2015, 12:00
PTAL in this area is already one of the worse in London. No 40 was a great route to LB and Guys Hospital.
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goldilocks
- Posts: 1051
- Joined: 06 Mar 2010, 19:35
Its not one of the worst in the area around East Dulwich Station - it is in the leafier bits of Dulwich - mainly cos its a straight line measurement and the playing fields obviously don't have bus routes...
40 was a good bus - and it is ridiculous that it now doesn't go to London Bridge, but thankfully today its just East Dulwich thats the issue and not the whole line.
40 was a good bus - and it is ridiculous that it now doesn't go to London Bridge, but thankfully today its just East Dulwich thats the issue and not the whole line.
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Bic Basher
- Posts: 1991
- Joined: 27 May 2009, 16:27
goldilocks Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Its not one of the worst in the area around East
> Dulwich Station - it is in the leafier bits of
> Dulwich - mainly cos its a straight line
> measurement and the playing fields obviously don't
> have bus routes...
You've conveniently forgotten the Dog Kennel Hill Estate.
-------------------------------------------------------
> Its not one of the worst in the area around East
> Dulwich Station - it is in the leafier bits of
> Dulwich - mainly cos its a straight line
> measurement and the playing fields obviously don't
> have bus routes...
You've conveniently forgotten the Dog Kennel Hill Estate.
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heartblock
- Posts: 1462
- Joined: 03 Jul 2015, 12:00
PTAL doesn't rise above 3 until one gets to Herne Hill or Peckham - 6 is the best and parts of Dulwich and ED barely get to 1 or 2.
PTAL at ED Station is a 4 as it is for most of ED. Goldilocks is right about the Village - If you paved over all the green spaces, PTAL there would rise, but probably not something anyone wants to see.
Agree about the number 40. Don't know why it no longer goes to London Bridge. That said, we can now get the East London Line from Denmark Hill which is an improvement.
Agree about the number 40. Don't know why it no longer goes to London Bridge. That said, we can now get the East London Line from Denmark Hill which is an improvement.
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heartblock
- Posts: 1462
- Joined: 03 Jul 2015, 12:00
4 at a station... great, let's dig out the Champers. You know 4 is pretty poor for London, most of Brixton is 6. But you know ..... yea!
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Bic Basher
- Posts: 1991
- Joined: 27 May 2009, 16:27
rahrahrah Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 4 across most of East Dulwich. The Village get's a
> lower score, because it's low density / full of
> large green spaces.
2 around the Forest Hill Road area, plus the area surrounding Overhill and Underhill Road which is served by the P13. The area around Forest Hill Station and Hornimans is a 6 presumably due to having more bus routes and a very regular train service.
-------------------------------------------------------
> 4 across most of East Dulwich. The Village get's a
> lower score, because it's low density / full of
> large green spaces.
2 around the Forest Hill Road area, plus the area surrounding Overhill and Underhill Road which is served by the P13. The area around Forest Hill Station and Hornimans is a 6 presumably due to having more bus routes and a very regular train service.
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heartblock
- Posts: 1462
- Joined: 03 Jul 2015, 12:00
""PTAL is a measure of accessibility used by TfL based on distance and frequency of public transport. The areas with a high level of public transport accessibility usually score 5, 6a or 6b on the PTAL scale, whilst areas with very low levels of public transport accessibility will score 0, 1a or 1b.
The Dulwich area has a low level of public transport accessibility. Areas around the main stations only reach a PTAL 3 and The Village a PTAL 2 whilst the main commercial area around East Dulwich has a PTAL 3. Other parts of Dulwich, particularly those where schools are located have a level 2 of accessibility translating into a higher use of car and coach for pupils outside of Dulwich.
This is confirmed also by more general DfT accessibility statistics which show that, in general the area has a lower public transport accessibility level than the remainder of Southwark whilst by car it tends to be on par with the other parts of the borough or somewhat higher for hospitals, particularly due to the proximity of Dulwich Community Hospital".
Southwark Council - Dulwich Area Traffic Management Study Final Report
April 2018
London Borough of Southwark 23130501
The Dulwich area has a low level of public transport accessibility. Areas around the main stations only reach a PTAL 3 and The Village a PTAL 2 whilst the main commercial area around East Dulwich has a PTAL 3. Other parts of Dulwich, particularly those where schools are located have a level 2 of accessibility translating into a higher use of car and coach for pupils outside of Dulwich.
This is confirmed also by more general DfT accessibility statistics which show that, in general the area has a lower public transport accessibility level than the remainder of Southwark whilst by car it tends to be on par with the other parts of the borough or somewhat higher for hospitals, particularly due to the proximity of Dulwich Community Hospital".
Southwark Council - Dulwich Area Traffic Management Study Final Report
April 2018
London Borough of Southwark 23130501
Disruption at East Dulwich expected until the end of the day.
Can you tell me more about the incident?
A problem has been identified with the procedure for stopping trains formed of 8 coaches at East Dulwich, affecting Platform 1. This platform is used by trains towards London Bridge. In some cases, train doors would not be in the correct location alongside equipment on the platforms.
Southern services which call at this station are generally formed of 8 coaches, and therefore we are unable to call at this station in this direction.
A plan to reopen the platform is being formulated. Until we can confirm that the correct procedure is in place, we will only be able to use Platform 2.
https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/service_ ... 95465.aspx
Can you tell me more about the incident?
A problem has been identified with the procedure for stopping trains formed of 8 coaches at East Dulwich, affecting Platform 1. This platform is used by trains towards London Bridge. In some cases, train doors would not be in the correct location alongside equipment on the platforms.
Southern services which call at this station are generally formed of 8 coaches, and therefore we are unable to call at this station in this direction.
A plan to reopen the platform is being formulated. Until we can confirm that the correct procedure is in place, we will only be able to use Platform 2.
https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/service_ ... 95465.aspx
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goldilocks
- Posts: 1051
- Joined: 06 Mar 2010, 19:35
you've conveniently misunderstood the sentence, so probably best not to try 'snark' until you do.
PTAL is not 'one of the worst in southwark' in the area around ED station, it is worse in the leafier bits of Dulwich
HTH!
Bic Basher Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> goldilocks Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Its not one of the worst in the area around
> East
> > Dulwich Station - it is in the leafier bits of
> > Dulwich - mainly cos its a straight line
> > measurement and the playing fields obviously
> don't
> > have bus routes...
>
> You've conveniently forgotten the Dog Kennel Hill
> Estate.
PTAL is not 'one of the worst in southwark' in the area around ED station, it is worse in the leafier bits of Dulwich
HTH!
Bic Basher Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> goldilocks Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Its not one of the worst in the area around
> East
> > Dulwich Station - it is in the leafier bits of
> > Dulwich - mainly cos its a straight line
> > measurement and the playing fields obviously
> don't
> > have bus routes...
>
> You've conveniently forgotten the Dog Kennel Hill
> Estate.
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heartblock
- Posts: 1462
- Joined: 03 Jul 2015, 12:00
Oh the gift that keeps giving...rude and wrong at the same time.
"Areas around the main stations only reach a PTAL 3"
"Areas around the main stations only reach a PTAL 3"
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goldilocks
- Posts: 1051
- Joined: 06 Mar 2010, 19:35
My comments were at Bic Basher not you - also I didn't mention the 3.
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Bic Basher
- Posts: 1991
- Joined: 27 May 2009, 16:27
kerry2015 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Slight off-topic, I haven't been a regular user
> recently but the service to/from London Bridge
> seems like it's been reduced . Is this temporary?
> Noticed that the last train from London Bridge to
> ED is 10.30. Recall it being a lot later
> previously.
There's a 90 minute gap between services after 2230. The final train to East Dulwich is the 0001 to Crystal Palace.
From May 15th, the 2231 to Beckenham Junction will be the final train which continues to be an appalling state of affairs, although the Overground will still run after this time where you can change at Denmark Hill or Peckham Rye for local buses.
-------------------------------------------------------
> Slight off-topic, I haven't been a regular user
> recently but the service to/from London Bridge
> seems like it's been reduced . Is this temporary?
> Noticed that the last train from London Bridge to
> ED is 10.30. Recall it being a lot later
> previously.
There's a 90 minute gap between services after 2230. The final train to East Dulwich is the 0001 to Crystal Palace.
From May 15th, the 2231 to Beckenham Junction will be the final train which continues to be an appalling state of affairs, although the Overground will still run after this time where you can change at Denmark Hill or Peckham Rye for local buses.
This is interesting..
Something must have changed to render platform 1 as unusable for 8-coach trains, because they?ve been running them for decades through ED stn.
Implication is either platform has to change (won?t happen overnight) or trains/train lengths need to change (unlikely to be resolved overnight).
Or they need to fessup what?s really the problem
ianr Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Disruption at East Dulwich expected until the end
> of the day.
>
> Can you tell me more about the incident?
>
> A problem has been identified with the procedure
> for stopping trains formed of 8 coaches at East
> Dulwich, affecting Platform 1. This platform is
> used by trains towards London Bridge. In some
> cases, train doors would not be in the correct
> location alongside equipment on the platforms.
>
> Southern services which call at this station are
> generally formed of 8 coaches, and therefore we
> are unable to call at this station in this
> direction.
>
> A plan to reopen the platform is being formulated.
> Until we can confirm that the correct procedure is
> in place, we will only be able to use Platform 2.
> https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/service_disruptions
> /295465.aspx
Something must have changed to render platform 1 as unusable for 8-coach trains, because they?ve been running them for decades through ED stn.
Implication is either platform has to change (won?t happen overnight) or trains/train lengths need to change (unlikely to be resolved overnight).
Or they need to fessup what?s really the problem
ianr Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Disruption at East Dulwich expected until the end
> of the day.
>
> Can you tell me more about the incident?
>
> A problem has been identified with the procedure
> for stopping trains formed of 8 coaches at East
> Dulwich, affecting Platform 1. This platform is
> used by trains towards London Bridge. In some
> cases, train doors would not be in the correct
> location alongside equipment on the platforms.
>
> Southern services which call at this station are
> generally formed of 8 coaches, and therefore we
> are unable to call at this station in this
> direction.
>
> A plan to reopen the platform is being formulated.
> Until we can confirm that the correct procedure is
> in place, we will only be able to use Platform 2.
> https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/service_disruptions
> /295465.aspx
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Bic Basher
- Posts: 1991
- Joined: 27 May 2009, 16:27
It may well be the case until they come up with something long-term, Southern may send a dispatcher to send the trains off on Platform 1.
There was a similar issue with New Cross Gate platform 5 with Southern services which are made up of 8 or 10 coaches where Southern had dispatchers sent up for their trains. London Overground weren't affected.
There was a similar issue with New Cross Gate platform 5 with Southern services which are made up of 8 or 10 coaches where Southern had dispatchers sent up for their trains. London Overground weren't affected.
heartblock Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ""PTAL is a measure of accessibility used by TfL
> based on distance and frequency of public
> transport. The areas with a high level of public
> transport accessibility usually score 5, 6a or 6b
> on the PTAL scale, whilst areas with very low
> levels of public transport accessibility will
> score 0, 1a or 1b.
> The Dulwich area has a low level of public
> transport accessibility. Areas around the main
> stations only reach a PTAL 3 and The Village a
> PTAL 2 whilst the main commercial area around East
> Dulwich has a PTAL 3. Other parts of Dulwich,
> particularly those where schools are located have
> a level 2 of accessibility translating into a
> higher use of car and coach for pupils outside of
> Dulwich.
> This is confirmed also by more general DfT
> accessibility statistics which show that, in
> general the area has a lower public transport
> accessibility level than the remainder of
> Southwark whilst by car it tends to be on par with
> the other parts of the borough or somewhat higher
> for hospitals, particularly due to the proximity
> of Dulwich Community Hospital".
> Southwark Council - Dulwich Area Traffic
> Management Study Final Report
> April 2018
> London Borough of Southwark 23130501
Most of East Dulwich has a PTAL of 4 (on scale of 0-6). It?s lower in the Village because large parts of it are green space. It could be better, but it?s not terrible and it?s not a good argument (as you often deploy it), for accepting forever greater car use.
https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/urban-plann ... cat/webcat
-------------------------------------------------------
> ""PTAL is a measure of accessibility used by TfL
> based on distance and frequency of public
> transport. The areas with a high level of public
> transport accessibility usually score 5, 6a or 6b
> on the PTAL scale, whilst areas with very low
> levels of public transport accessibility will
> score 0, 1a or 1b.
> The Dulwich area has a low level of public
> transport accessibility. Areas around the main
> stations only reach a PTAL 3 and The Village a
> PTAL 2 whilst the main commercial area around East
> Dulwich has a PTAL 3. Other parts of Dulwich,
> particularly those where schools are located have
> a level 2 of accessibility translating into a
> higher use of car and coach for pupils outside of
> Dulwich.
> This is confirmed also by more general DfT
> accessibility statistics which show that, in
> general the area has a lower public transport
> accessibility level than the remainder of
> Southwark whilst by car it tends to be on par with
> the other parts of the borough or somewhat higher
> for hospitals, particularly due to the proximity
> of Dulwich Community Hospital".
> Southwark Council - Dulwich Area Traffic
> Management Study Final Report
> April 2018
> London Borough of Southwark 23130501
Most of East Dulwich has a PTAL of 4 (on scale of 0-6). It?s lower in the Village because large parts of it are green space. It could be better, but it?s not terrible and it?s not a good argument (as you often deploy it), for accepting forever greater car use.
https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/urban-plann ... cat/webcat
Rahx3 - not entirely correct - a small part of East Dulwich, closest to the station, has a PTAL of 4 - the rest has a PTAL of 3 or 2 and the Village and Peckham Rye areas are even worse.
This is why the council referred to the Dulwich area having "poor" PTAL scores in the Transport Report of 2018. A lower PTAL score is one of the reasons for increased car use (because there aren't public transport alternatives) and one of reasons why the council said LTNs should only be put in in areas with high PTAL scores. Dulwich does not have high PTAL scores.
This is why the council referred to the Dulwich area having "poor" PTAL scores in the Transport Report of 2018. A lower PTAL score is one of the reasons for increased car use (because there aren't public transport alternatives) and one of reasons why the council said LTNs should only be put in in areas with high PTAL scores. Dulwich does not have high PTAL scores.
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heartblock
- Posts: 1462
- Joined: 03 Jul 2015, 12:00
Actually if you use Rahx3's link - it shows that SE22 has a PTAL of 3 overall ( PTAL output for Base Year
3, SE22 London SE22, UK Easting: 533972, Northing: 174602) and SE21 2 overall(PTAL output for Base Year 2 SE21 London SE21, UK Easting: 533207, Northing: 172829)
Thanks Rahx3 nice link.
Here it is SE21 https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/urban-plann ... &type=Ptal
Se22 https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/urban-plann ... &type=Ptal
PTAL is public transport in an area - not a train station or bus stop - it is a measure of how efficiently PT can transport one from one's home to a place of work or other destination.
Brixton 6b https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/urban-plann ... &type=Ptal
Peckham Rye 6a
https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/urban-plann ... &type=Ptal
Great link. Thanks. East Dulwich and the Village - very poor PTAL, a terrible idea to put LTNs in when PTAL so low.So when a train service is cut it must drop to being really, really terrible.
3, SE22 London SE22, UK Easting: 533972, Northing: 174602) and SE21 2 overall(PTAL output for Base Year 2 SE21 London SE21, UK Easting: 533207, Northing: 172829)
Thanks Rahx3 nice link.
Here it is SE21 https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/urban-plann ... &type=Ptal
Se22 https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/urban-plann ... &type=Ptal
PTAL is public transport in an area - not a train station or bus stop - it is a measure of how efficiently PT can transport one from one's home to a place of work or other destination.
Brixton 6b https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/urban-plann ... &type=Ptal
Peckham Rye 6a
https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/urban-plann ... &type=Ptal
Great link. Thanks. East Dulwich and the Village - very poor PTAL, a terrible idea to put LTNs in when PTAL so low.So when a train service is cut it must drop to being really, really terrible.
PTAL - Schmeetal
When I moved here many years ago, I had already worked out that Brixton and Clapham are on the tube, but East Dulwich is not, Nor, like Clapham Junction or Peckham Rye to a lesser extent was it served by a National Rail interchange station.
And to a fairly significant extent, that was reflected in the price of property round here. So I moved here knowing what I was getting.
I live close to Goose Green and can't think of anywhere I need to go that I can't get to on public transport quite easily. True, when meeting friends in the West End, I'm slightly envious that those that live in areas served by the Northern and Victoria Lines will get home faster than me, but it's really not news. It's part of the make-up of the area.
The trains and buses we have are currently less frequent than pre-pandemic. But the fact that I might have to wait up to nine minutes for a certain bus service, rather than six really doesn't stop me using that mode of transport. I just need to wait a couple of minutes longer or plan slightly better.
In my case it is invariably waiting a couple of extra minutes...
When I moved here many years ago, I had already worked out that Brixton and Clapham are on the tube, but East Dulwich is not, Nor, like Clapham Junction or Peckham Rye to a lesser extent was it served by a National Rail interchange station.
And to a fairly significant extent, that was reflected in the price of property round here. So I moved here knowing what I was getting.
I live close to Goose Green and can't think of anywhere I need to go that I can't get to on public transport quite easily. True, when meeting friends in the West End, I'm slightly envious that those that live in areas served by the Northern and Victoria Lines will get home faster than me, but it's really not news. It's part of the make-up of the area.
The trains and buses we have are currently less frequent than pre-pandemic. But the fact that I might have to wait up to nine minutes for a certain bus service, rather than six really doesn't stop me using that mode of transport. I just need to wait a couple of minutes longer or plan slightly better.
In my case it is invariably waiting a couple of extra minutes...
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heartblock
- Posts: 1462
- Joined: 03 Jul 2015, 12:00
Aah well as long as you're ok that's all that matters.
"The consequences of poor access to public transport, which due to its very nature impacts disproportionately on those with low incomes, the elderly and women, results in a lack of ability to access education, jobs, health facilities and hospitals. Level of access to public transport services is therefore a function of the degree to which social exclusion processes are experienced. PTALs as indicators are of particular importance in revealing the impact of network changes on travel patterns for those groups who rely on bus provision (Hine and Mitchell, 2001)
"The consequences of poor access to public transport, which due to its very nature impacts disproportionately on those with low incomes, the elderly and women, results in a lack of ability to access education, jobs, health facilities and hospitals. Level of access to public transport services is therefore a function of the degree to which social exclusion processes are experienced. PTALs as indicators are of particular importance in revealing the impact of network changes on travel patterns for those groups who rely on bus provision (Hine and Mitchell, 2001)
KidKruger wrote:
> Something must have changed to render platform
> 1 as unusable for 8-coach trains, because they?ve
> been running them for decades through ED stn.
When the train is longer than the available platform it uses Selective Door Operation (SDO: cf https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_door_operation ) to keep some of the doors closed. My first hypothesis was that their system is of the type that gets the necessary information, about how long the platform is, from an electronic beacon sited at or on the approach to the platform, and that it was that data propagation bit that's been faulty.
In Usenet newsgroup uk.railway (also accessible via Google Groups) there's a simpler explanation offered: "AIUI the stop board was moved pending the withdrawal of class 455 stock at the end of the month meaning the trains (currently 8 car class 455) can no longer stop with all the doors on the platform." The stop board being the one saying where the head of a train of a given size should stop.
When the trains do reappear, are they different stock, and do they require SDO? Did the trains that were running last week require SDO? Has the 8 car stop board been moved.?
> Something must have changed to render platform
> 1 as unusable for 8-coach trains, because they?ve
> been running them for decades through ED stn.
When the train is longer than the available platform it uses Selective Door Operation (SDO: cf https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_door_operation ) to keep some of the doors closed. My first hypothesis was that their system is of the type that gets the necessary information, about how long the platform is, from an electronic beacon sited at or on the approach to the platform, and that it was that data propagation bit that's been faulty.
In Usenet newsgroup uk.railway (also accessible via Google Groups) there's a simpler explanation offered: "AIUI the stop board was moved pending the withdrawal of class 455 stock at the end of the month meaning the trains (currently 8 car class 455) can no longer stop with all the doors on the platform." The stop board being the one saying where the head of a train of a given size should stop.
When the trains do reappear, are they different stock, and do they require SDO? Did the trains that were running last week require SDO? Has the 8 car stop board been moved.?
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Bic Basher
- Posts: 1991
- Joined: 27 May 2009, 16:27
ianr Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> When the trains do reappear, are they different
> stock, and do they require SDO? Did the trains
> that were running last week require SDO? Has the
> 8 car stop board been moved.?
After May 15th which is when the 455s are being replaced, they'll be using Class 377 trains which also have selective SDO. I think that line can only handle 8 coaches anyway, unlike the Forest Hill line which has had 10 coaches in the past on Southern trains.
-------------------------------------------------------
> When the trains do reappear, are they different
> stock, and do they require SDO? Did the trains
> that were running last week require SDO? Has the
> 8 car stop board been moved.?
After May 15th which is when the 455s are being replaced, they'll be using Class 377 trains which also have selective SDO. I think that line can only handle 8 coaches anyway, unlike the Forest Hill line which has had 10 coaches in the past on Southern trains.