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messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by diable rouge February 07, 02:47PM

What mandate there was after the referendum was lost when Theresa May decided to hold a snap GE based on her red lines, and failed. However, it seems our democracy can be bought...

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by Sephiroth February 07, 03:01PM

Doesn't even need buying - seems there are enough punters out there happy enough to not ask any questions and wave the whole thing thru, ignoring precedent from other countries

Bluster and arrogance - all it takes to screw a country

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by Jules-and-Boo February 07, 03:07PM

well, not really true. We had a referendum (not a frequent thing) and then we're doing what the referendum vote decided on, although it's proving tricky as EU think a proposal amounts to a done-deal and this proposal was rejected as not in our best interests.

True that a number of people think that it doesn't count or that we can have another one until there is a different result (best out of three?) but that doesn't really matter. There is always lots of 'noise'.

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by Alan Medic February 07, 03:07PM

I believe in Canada it's enshrined in their law that any referendum has to involve a vote on clearly defined options. That certainly didn't happen here in the case of Leave (we all knew what we voted for nonsense)vote.

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by Sephiroth February 07, 03:11PM

"well, not really true"

sorry but it's exactly true - and all you have to do is look at other countries with more practice in referendums

It's tricky to implement the referendum result because it's impossible to do - that leave vote contains at least 3 groups of mutually antagonistic types of leaver. They will never agree on what they want or will compromise on

All brexits lead to a worse off country

to say it's because of the EU is... well.. bluster and arrogance at best. Ignorance is involved too. Sorry - but it is

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by keano77 February 07, 03:19PM

Youre on dodgy ground about referendums Sephiroth given Irelands form in voting twice on the Nice and Lisbon treaties

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by Sephiroth February 07, 03:25PM

Why does that put me on dodgy ground? It's exactly the point I'm making

A country took a poll, reviewed the changes and outcome and took a second poll

democracy didn't fall
people didn't riot
Support for EU remained high

that's a mature process - the opposite of this country

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by keano77 February 07, 03:28PM

If you say so ...

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by Sephiroth February 07, 03:31PM

which bit is "say so"

Which bit are you struggling with?

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by JohnL February 07, 03:34PM

I see a stitch up coming whilst the papers talk about Tusk. May must be coming under pressure.

"Speaking after a meeting with the prime minister in Brussels, Brexit coordinator Guy Verhofstadt said we welcome the letter the Labour leader had sent to the prime minister laying out his partys alternative proposals.

We have reiterated that we cannot have an agreement with uncertainty in the UK based on majorities of six, seven, eight, nine votes in the House of Commons,"

[www.independent.co.uk]

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by keano77 February 07, 03:35PM

Im not struggling at all. Its fantasy* to think the people reviewed their decision spontaneously.

The facts were your political masters in Ireland and Europe made you vote again because the people gave what they considered the wrong answers.

(* see what I did there)

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by Sephiroth February 07, 03:41PM

"Im not struggling at all. Its fantasy* to think the people reviewed their decision spontaneously.

The facts were your political masters in Ireland and Europe made you vote again because the people gave what they considered the wrong answers. "

This is what I mean by delusional - this is pure tin foil nonsense

If "our political masters in Ireland and Europe made you vote again" then why would the second vote reverse teh first by such a large margin - seriously, why?

And if it was fixed somehow, why weren't people protesting?

And why has support for EU membership remained so high?

You simply don't have any answers - because you live in a made up world

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by robbin February 07, 03:45PM

He/she said with not even a hint of irony!

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by Sephiroth February 07, 03:46PM

I'm pointing at real world examples - what are you doing?

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by JohnL February 07, 03:48PM

Will be dismissed as EU propaganda I know but "Asking the public twice: why do voters change their minds in second referendums on EU treaties?" by Ece zlem Atikcan LSE

[blogs.lse.ac.uk]

actually more of a why than whether they should - but implies there's a democracy to multiple votes in complex matters to me smiling smiley



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was february 07, 03:51pm by JohnL.

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by diable rouge February 07, 03:48PM

keano77 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> The facts were your political masters in Ireland
> and Europe made you vote again because the people
> gave what they considered the wrong answers.

I think you'll find that they realised they asked the wrong question, hence the wrong answer. Once they got the question right, so they got the right answer...smiling smiley

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by keano77 February 07, 03:58PM

Hey, youre the one who plays fantasy games not me.

Without giving you a history lesson and going into too much detail, your political masters won some legal guarantees from the EU and re-framed the second referendum debates. Project fear also played a part in the Lisbon referendum mark II at least where Yes slogans such as Europe: Lets be at the heart of it were replaced with more dramatic messages such as Ruin versus recovery.

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by Sephiroth February 07, 04:04PM

You are just restating your original point - the Irish voters were mugged off. At no point do you address the outcome of that second vote - where Ireland continues to be a democracy, no angry voters and EU membership

Why would it be bad if that happened here?

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by keano77 February 07, 04:24PM

Unfortunately Sephiroth, unlike Ireland which won firm legal guarantees from the EU which satisfied the reservations of the voters, I cant see the EU giving us firm legal guarantees that Prevent us being trapped by the backstop. As such any second referendum now would only be a re-run of the first.

It was a mistake not to discuss a trade deal in parallel with the withdrawal agreement as a trade deal favourable to both parties might negate the need for a backstop. But we are where we are.

The EUs insistence on the backstop implies a favourable trade deal is unlikely.

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by Sephiroth February 07, 04:29PM

"The EUs insistence on the backstop "

It was Britain which insisted on the backstop - and the EU budged to allow it in Dec 2017. But of COURSE people like you have to keep blaming others - you just can't admit it was a bad, bad mistake

Plenty of people have released their mistake* - but of course people like you would deny them the agency to express that.

* How many? Enough to change the vote? If only there was a way to measure it

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by JohnL February 07, 04:38PM

Sephiroth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "The EUs insistence on the backstop "
>
> It was Britain which insisted on the backstop -
> and the EU budged to allow it in Dec 2017. But of
> COURSE people like you have to keep blaming others
> - you just can't admit it was a bad, bad mistake
>
> Plenty of people have released their mistake* -
> but of course people like you would deny them the
> agency to express that.
>
> * How many? Enough to change the vote? If only
> there was a way to measure it

We have 2.5 years of youngsters coming to voting age since June 2016 mainly supporting remain. This has already been proven to surpass the 2016 lead.

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by Sephiroth February 07, 04:42PM

"We have 2.5 years of youngsters coming to voting age since June 2016 mainly supporting remain. This has already been proven to surpass the 2016 lead."

I'm not sure how much faith we could put in that number alone - but again without another poll we can never know

It's entirely Britain's fault that a second ref would essentially be a rerun of the first one - it never had any cards to play in the first place, has been outclassed every step of the way and was always going to be

If it does go ahead with leaving, then it will continue to be outclassed in future trade deals with other large nations - but again, it simply can't admit it

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by keano77 February 07, 04:45PM

I think youre right, it was our negotiating team that came up with the backstop as a possible solution to the border issue.

I would be prepared to accept the backstop if there was a short time limit on it. As it stands there is little incentive for the EU to negotiate an all encompassing trade deal

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by Sephiroth February 07, 04:50PM

"I would be prepared to accept the backstop if there was a short time limit on it"

Then it isn't a backstop is it?

Try getting a 25 year mortgage with a time limit on the obligation to pay back

But inventing ever more elaborate wangles to try and squeeze smallest possible concessions is all so pointless - it's all risk and little reward

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by JohnL February 07, 05:00PM

The EU have said they'll help May on the backstop if she removes some red lines - but at present that seems to be the Customs Union.

ALl this horsetrading will have an effect on Westminster and I'm still tempted to say rip up the book and lets start from scratch whatever happens with Brexit. Our system hasn't been good enough for this.

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by keano77 February 07, 05:02PM

More to the point would you take out a mortgage that has no end date?

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by JohnL February 07, 05:04PM

keano77 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> More to the point would you take out a mortgage
> that has no end date?


I had a few credit cards with minimum payments that would never actually pay off the capital smiling smiley But the companies have suddenly been told that can't be allowed to continue so I've paid the majority off.

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by Sephiroth February 07, 05:06PM

More to the point again would you commit to a mortgage you couldn't afford by a long chalk and on a house where you hadn't checked the fabric of the building?

Britain thought it could afford this, but it can't. It needs to back away before it's too late

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by keano77 February 07, 05:10PM

I dont share your pessimism Sephiroth

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by Sephiroth February 07, 05:14PM

I know - so here we are again back to the starting point - loads of credible people from businesses to economists who aren't Minford to govt impact reports etc etc vs some people who think it will be fine

One of those groups will be wrong - and only one of those groups will be able to say "ah well" if they are wrong.If it's the other they will have destroyed a country for generations and risked peace (for not much reward if any)

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