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messageRe: Make sure that your child's school consults you about the new RSE curriculum
Posted by TE44 August 27, 03:46AM

Sweetgirl I think people have become more divided, Voicing your views as a minority within a system has become more difficult especially within the current climate, people are seeing how quickly you can be accused of a number of things. Having choices should make a difference but besause there can a be a fight for choice its easier to go with the majority, especially when the majority do not really believe you should have a choice.
I found school a learning experience when my children went, i had many concerns with education and voiced them. I think if you can talk openly to your children, it is wise to be aware of what your children are learning.

messageRe: Make sure that your child's school consults you about the new RSE curriculum
Posted by niledynodely August 27, 02:36PM

j.a. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Nidelynodely - stop blaming the schools for stuff
> that is your responsibility.
>
> If you want to indoctrinate your kids in such a
> manner then you’re free to do so as a parent;
> that’s your right.
>
> You’re literally blaming other people for things
> that are your problem to handle. Home school your
> kids or send them to a Catholic school.
>
> I find your insistence that everyone else fall in
> line with your antiquated sense of right and wrong
> frankly appalling.

Unfortunately parents have no way of protecting their children from aspects of RSE which they might go against their religious or personal values. The right to do so was actually enshrined by the UN following the second world war because the last people who had tried to indoctrinate children against their parent's wishes were the Nazis and the UN was trying to prevent this happening again (see below). Much of what is being taught (and I have studied it extensively) goes against the values and beliefs of many parents - encouraging anal sex (evidenced by the largest proportion of people to engage in it being in the youngest adult generation), early sexual debut, treating sex as an activity to be engaged in for pleasure and health (rather than to strengthen a relationship). And so on. It is parents like me who are having our human rights violated. We are not the ones doing the violation.

"Remember: UK law upholds the right of parents to guide the education of
their children as fundamental and protected. This is particularly true of
educational content which has a moral character; schools MUST NOT
undermine the manner in which parents seek to bring up their children.
Schools MUST respect the manner in which you seek to raise your children
in accordance with your own religious or philosophical convictions."

"

messageRe: Make sure that your child's school consults you about the new RSE curriculum
Posted by SpringTime August 27, 02:45PM

Can we get back on topic please? If anyone can do the Anus/Anus thing please PM me.

messageRe: Make sure that your child's school consults you about the new RSE curriculum
Posted by niledynodely August 27, 03:09PM

>
> The OP has openly stated an opposition to
> pre-marital sex, and believes that teenagers
> should be actively discouraged from it. Good luck
> with that, frankly. The realpolitik is that -
> where sex is concerned - education and information
> mean people are more likely to make good decisions
> (remember we’re talking about adolescents here!).
> The OP prefers the kind of education that prevents
> sexual activity at all. That is both naive and
> dangerous, and far more likely to result in
> trouble.
>
I think if you give children boundaries it raises the bar.

Also it is just I have a different idea of what sort of information we should be giving young people. For example I think we should teach young people that when they have sex with others actual physiological things happen which bond them to one another. This means that you can end up getting really attached to someone who you might not in fact be that well suited to. This bonding, which has been shown to happen also means that it is particularly distressing when you break up. Also there seems to be evidence that the fewer sexual partners you have had when you get married the more likely your marriage is to survive. And that people who have had fewer sexual partners actually enjoy sex more. We should teach all of this in a factual way backed up with data.

Similarly I think we should teach children how masturbation and pornography can be addictive so they need to keep an eye on that. And we should talk to them, particularly to the boys about how the more you masturbate to pornography the more difficult you find obtaining sexual satisfaction with a real person. So if they want to go out into the world and really enjoy sex avoid porn. Even excessive masturbation can make it more difficult for you to orgasm with a partner rather than with yourself. Yeah so these are some of the useful things we could be teaching our children. I can think of other things too.

And quite frankly I can't think of anything more likely to destroy sexual pleasure than having it taught to you by your teachers at school. And that is what we do. Insane.

messageRe: Make sure that your child's school consults you about the new RSE curriculum
Posted by j.a. August 27, 03:36PM

niledynodely Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------
> >
> I think if you give children boundaries it raises
> the bar.
>
> Also it is just I have a different idea of what
> sort of information we should be giving young
> people. For example I think we should teach young
> people that when they have sex with others actual
> physiological things happen which bond them to one
> another. This means that you can end up getting
> really attached to someone who you might not in
> fact be that well suited to. This bonding, which
> has been shown to happen also means that it is
> particularly distressing when you break up. Also
> there seems to be evidence that the fewer sexual
> partners you have had when you get married the
> more likely your marriage is to survive. And that
> people who have had fewer sexual partners actually
> enjoy sex more. We should teach all of this in a
> factual way backed up with data.
>
> Similarly I think we should teach children how
> masturbation and pornography can be addictive so
> they need to keep an eye on that. And we should
> talk to them, particularly to the boys about how
> the more you masturbate to pornography the more
> difficult you find obtaining sexual satisfaction
> with a real person. So if they want to go out into
> the world and really enjoy sex avoid porn. Even
> excessive masturbation can make it more difficult
> for you to orgasm with a partner rather than with
> yourself. Yeah so these are some of the useful
> things we could be teaching our children. I can
> think of other things too.
>
> And quite frankly I can't think of anything more
> likely to destroy sexual pleasure than having it
> taught to you by your teachers at school. And that
> is what we do. Insane.


Now, all of that is a lot more sensible and realistic than the utter drivel you were spouting at the start of the thread.

I still think that you need to realise that you’re competing with the internet, and if you don’t have honest conversations with teenagers about a wide range of subjects then they’ll go off and find their own answers, which is fairly risky. Adolescent hormones put up a hell of a fight. You refer to ‘boundaries’, and I would say that with teenagers all you can do is explain why those boundaries exist and then hope they stick to them when they’re out of sight. This applies to everything from road safety to drugs.

Why shouldn’t teachers be part of it though? They’re part of great swathes of our kids development, why wouldn’t they have conversations about this? When I was at GCSE level part of our week was a 45 minute session in a small group with a teacher where nothing was off-limits and everything utterly confidential. We discussed what I will only describe as a wide range of topics between us, and it was of great benefit to our personal development. I think like so much else it depends on the teacher. Some teachers are useless and you wouldn’t trust them with the emotional development of a mayfly, but some are wonderful human beings who can help immensely. Writing off the idea entirely is short-sighted.

However, fair play to you, that’s a much better angle.

messageRe: Make sure that your child's school consults you about the new RSE curriculum
Posted by Mops August 27, 04:11PM

I cannot begin to describe how disappointed and frustrated I am by the misinformation being peddled here. If I didn’t know this was the OP’s genuine socio-political beliefs (which Google has made clear) I’d presume this was trolling and wouldn’t reply.

As someone who seems to repeatedly assert their role in the field of research, I implore you to please undertake some critical analysis of your primary sources. This “Values Foundation” you keep quoting has incredibly damaging material on its website which falls very close to the realms of hate crime and discrimination. For anyone interested, please look up their website and from the drop down menu select “Evidence” (the title says it all really). You will find a one drive account full of homophobic and discriminatory personal beliefs marketed as some kind of fact or “evidence”. This is dangerous material which should not be being relied upon as good authority.

I appreciate you are stressing a personal concern but please take care to not perpetuate discriminatory beliefs or disseminate misinformation.

messageRe: Make sure that your child's school consults you about the new RSE curriculum
Posted by niledynodely August 27, 04:13PM

I think even where they will find out about all this stuff anyway how adults deal with sex will affect how children deal with it. If we do, as many of the curriculums do, treat anal sex as just normal regular sex, explain to them how to do it (as the resources do) etc they are more likely to engage in it (and this is what is happening). And I have yet to see resources which explain the full gamut of health risks which accompany anal sex.

Similarly pornography. If we say to kids "cool, go ahead watch all the porn you like", they are much more likely to slip into addiction. There is loads of evidence to show that pornography acts just like any other drug on the brain - we don't encourage other drugs why encourage porn? Why not say to (young men in particular) if you watch loads of porn, you are going to find it much more difficult to get a hard on when you are with a real woman, you will find it more difficult to orgasm etc etc (all of which is true) it might actually discourage them from watching as much porn - to the benefit of their own sex lives.

So why not provide young people with this sort of information? Besides the evidence suggests that comprehensive sex education actually has adverse effects on sexually transmitted disease and rates of teenage pregnancy so all this stuff about it being good for children is just hogwash perpetuated by sex ed lobbies who have a heap of money to make selling this stuff.
[www.cochranelibrary.com]
[www.institute-research.com]

messageRe: Make sure that your child's school consults you about the new RSE curriculum
Posted by j.a. August 27, 04:28PM

Literally nobody is saying that kids should all get into bum sex (you seem obsessed with this) or watch a ton of porn. That’s your spin on what’s been posted.

At the risk of sounding like a stuck record, we live on a world where there is almost too much information. Schools and parents need to parse that down into solid facts, which will allow people to make informed choices. Some of them will make bad choices, that’s human nature.

If I didn’t know better I’d say two different people were writing your posts.

ETA - also, what Mops said. Values Foundation = Lunatic Nutjobs



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was august 27, 04:29pm by j.a..

messageRe: Make sure that your child's school consults you about the new RSE curriculum
Posted by Mops August 27, 04:36PM

The Values Foundation publishes, on its website, material authored by proponents of gay conversion therapy. I’m honestly aghast Niledy, a researcher, is comfortable demonstrating reliance on this source so publicly on the internet but at least we know where the anal obsession is coming from.

messageRe: Make sure that your child's school consults you about the new RSE curriculum
Posted by TE44 August 27, 05:11PM

Considering the growing reported cases of sexual assaults in schools, *peer on peer* children should be warned of the dangers of pornography and many sexual behaviours being normalised and put forward as tolerance. and acceptance. This is a problem recognised in education. Its also a problem that highlights the need to help children not only understand there own needs but respect others.

Statutory guidance for schools and colleges, Keeping Children Safe. (Peer on Peer abuse) 27 link , there are many differences in childrens situations and schools also need to understand they are only part of the childrens education, as parents we are responsible.

[assets.publishing.service.gov.uk]

messageRe: Make sure that your child's school consults you about the new RSE curriculum
Posted by seenbeen August 27, 08:06PM

TE44 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Considering the growing reported cases of sexual
> assaults in schools, *peer on peer* children
> should be warned of the dangers of pornography and
> many sexual behaviours being normalised and put
> forward as tolerance. and acceptance. This is a
> problem recognised in education. Its also a
> problem that highlights the need to help children
> not only understand there own needs but respect
> others.
>
> Statutory guidance for schools and colleges,
> Keeping Children Safe. (Peer on Peer abuse) 27
> link , there are many differences in childrens
> situations and schools also need to understand
> they are only part of the childrens education, as
> parents we are responsible.
>
> [assets.publishing.service.gov.uk]
> t/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/8357
> 33/Keeping_children_safe_in_education_2019.pdf
Yes peer on peer abuse is rife. I challenged a boy who had touched a girl and she told him to get off and it was obvious that she was unhappy about it. He actually said 'she likes it really'...unbelievable. There were some advertisements about it a few years ago.

messageRe: Make sure that your child's school consults you about the new RSE curriculum
Posted by TE44 August 27, 10:58PM

child sex abuse is a huge problem in and outside of school, this is a reality that I believe can be overshadowed by vocal minority groups that although divided outside of school, (gender politics) are now involved with our childrens education around relationships and sex education. there are many children suffering silently while the adults decide about games ans sexual positions that may or may not be fun. Showing some how we*ve become more open and tolerant and moved away from that awkward silence of the past. I think there must be room and respect for others. We*ve seen cases of child rape in our schools along with increasing numbers of sexual abuse. this is a huge problem. the child must be the priority.

[www.nspcc.org.uk]

messageRe: Make sure that your child's school consults you about the new RSE curriculum
Posted by niledynodely August 27, 11:55PM

Mops Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I can appreciate the OP is coming from a position
> of genuine care and concern, however I am worried
> they may have misunderstood the context around
> RSE.
>
> Let’s take this particular example of the dice
> exercise and of anal sex being mentioned more
> generally in RSE lessons in senior schools. Whilst
> you could interpret this exercise as “our
> teenagers being taught how to have all kinds of
> less traditional of non-reproductive sexual
> interactions”, you could also see this exercise as
> an educational opportunity in a safe space to
> inform young people that there is no “one” or
> “right” way to have sex; sex can take lots of
> difference forms and means something different to
> different people - what is key is consent. The
> effect of this exercise would be the inclusion and
> acknowledgment of sex for non-heterosexual
> individuals. In the long term, this reduces
> homophobia, discrimination and bigotry and
> actively includes young people who identify as
> LGBTQ+ or whose parents/ families/ carers may
> identify as LGBTQ+.
>
> Sex is in pop culture, it’s all over the internet.
> It’s on social media, in films, throughout song
> lyrics. A lack of information has far greater
> capacity to cause harm than any uncomfortable
> conversations in an educational setting may do, or
> even teaching a young person about something sex
> related they hadn’t yet come across.
>
> I appreciate 13 may seem very young, but it is
> important to remember (1) the typical exposure a
> teenager of 13 will already have had, whether in
> conversation, in pop culture or on the internet;
> and (2) just because certain RSE topics are
> designated “13+” doesn’t mean they’re taught at
> 13; they could be addressed at 16, 17 or 18.
>
> I hope you can try to see this from another
> perspective, the same way I can appreciate you are
> trying to protect young people in the way you
> think is best. My advice would be that it is
> important to think about how we can protect (and
> include) all young people; not just those who act
> like us or who share our own beliefs or sexual
> preferences.

Thank you Mops for engaging in a respectful way.

I am familiar with all your arguments and read them all the time in the course of my research. They are the justification for the RSE approach.

My own take on this is I'm afraid that there is a 'right' way to have sex and it would be a great thing to present this vision to our young people. I think this right way to have sex is in a deeply committed relationship with someone you know very well. I think sex should be about strengthening relationships first and then pleasure. I believe the pursuit of pleasure is no more likely to lead to real pleasure than the pursuit of happiness leads to real happiness).
I don't think we should be leading young people to experiment with BDSM and anal sex, or whatever (to find out more about what young people are being encouraged to believe is normal check this article and link on the two links 'oh joy sex toy' and 'this one' in this article. This article is from Sexwise which is a recommended resource in the government guidance [www.sexwise.org.uk] )


I don't think we should make anal sex seem normal, it really has some serious health risks and I think we should tell young people about this. The only reason we don't is because we are afraid of being homophobic but I think it is far more damaging to gay people to not properly inform them of the risks of anal sex. I think the vast majority of us just accept gay people without thinking to much about what they get up to.
And to be honest my generation grew up by and large perfectly accepting of gay people without having to go through some sort of programme in order to accept them.

I think the dice game could encourage young people to treat sex as a hobby to experiment with and I appreciate that for a lot of parents that is just fine. But I think we should treat sex as something almost sacred. I don't think it is just about consent. When I read some of these materials (e.g. Great Relationships and Sex Education by Hoyle and McGeeney) children are taught that they should not be judgemental about any sexual activity, they are taught that people have sex without any emotion and that is totally fine and they are also taught that sometimes people like a bit of pain. Personally I think all of these teachings are going to leave a young person (particularly a young women) extremely vulnerable. It would have left me vulnerable. I would not have known whether I liked what was happening or not. If I experienced some pleasurable sensation I would have understood this was a good thing. If I had an the same time experienced shame I would have thought that I had an attitude problem. But shame is a useful self-defence mechanism to alert us that we are doing something that isn't good for us. Yet these children will have been taught that they should not experience shame.

I apologise for rambling but talking about sexual and emotional feelings is very complex. And I think these sorts of activities could leave children exploiting themselves, misusing their bodies and not even being aware that they are doing so.

Alternatively this sort of stuff, especially taught to them by their school teacher could actually just put them off sex for a good while. We do know young people are having a lot less sex than my generation (I was born in the 60s) although they are having a much higher proportion of anal sex.

Finally the real issue is that parents values and beliefs should be respected in the education of their children. This has been enshrined in UN law since the end of the WW2 (it was something Nazis failed to do). Those parents who, like me, think that sex should be treated as something special and sacred are having their rights ignored.

By the way I would like to add I was brought up in an extremely liberal way and have arrived at the position I have through trial and error.

messageRe: Make sure that your child's school consults you about the new RSE curriculum
Posted by TE44 August 28, 09:58AM

Niledynodely, I agree, most people accept gay people in this country without the need to know there sex lives. We live in a culture now where people are afraid to voice there opinions for fear of being accused of being hateful. I believe young people have enough dangerous sexualisation outside of school which I believe reflects in the horror we know many children go through. Children can empathise without feeling they need to be forced into it, as well as disagreeing,without feeling they may be accused of being bigotted etc.
The situation we are seeing with adults, especially round the gender issues, where instad of conversation we see only accusation, like many subjects, the right and wrongs of decisions we make in our life are getting lost and confused with this fear of what might happen if we say the wrong thing. I believe adults, especially when part of a group need to look at themselves, before forcing teachings on children. Often the subject matter is lost and we're left with the victim and bully conversation.
No subject is isolated, although this creates complexity it also brings new things.
I have been looking at increase in children born with differet variations of inter sex. This is a subject that can cover many subject in the cirriculum, open discussions from RSE to enviromental. I do not believe where there is an agenda around inclusion that creates so much divide, it should not spill into our schools where parents choices are removed and the divide continues.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was august 28, 10:00am by TE44.

messageRe: Make sure that your child's school consults you about the new RSE curriculum
Posted by niledynodely August 28, 11:25AM

TE44 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> child sex abuse is a huge problem in and outside
> of school, this is a reality that I believe can be
> overshadowed by vocal minority groups that
> although divided outside of school, (gender
> politics) are now involved with our childrens
> education around relationships and sex education.
> there are many children suffering silently while
> the adults decide about games ans sexual positions
> that may or may not be fun. Showing some how we*ve
> become more open and tolerant and moved away from
> that awkward silence of the past. I think there
> must be room and respect for others. We*ve seen
> cases of child rape in our schools along with
> increasing numbers of sexual abuse. this is a huge
> problem. the child must be the priority.
>
> [www.nspcc.org.uk]
> 0/child-sexual-offences-rise/


Yes we have seen increases in child on child sexual abuse in schools. The idea of education is to provoke a child's interest and when they see cartoon videos of penises entering vaginas (Spring Fever) or legs splayed open with everything on view and when they see the free and easy attitude which adults around them have to sex I'm afraid that this contributes towards this abuse.

messageRe: Make sure that your child's school consults you about the new RSE curriculum
Posted by alice August 28, 12:46PM

Has anyone looked on the gov. site for RSE.

messageRe: Make sure that your child's school consults you about the new RSE curriculum
Posted by seenbeen August 28, 01:11PM

alice Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Has anyone looked on the gov. site for RSE.

Here's the link
[www.gov.uk]

I haven't read it all but know what has actually been going on to date and I know that in the Equality section of PSHE/Citizenship LGBTQ+ equality, or contraception is not discussed in some 'faith' schools as they have been allowed to opt out which reinforces intolerance and a dereliction of safeguarding duty in my opinion.
The National Secular Society points out that 'faith' institutions may exploit loopholes.
[www.secularism.org.uk]

Primary schools do NOT have to teach sex education at all but they do have to teach Relationships
[www.gov.uk]
second paragraph

messageRe: Make sure that your child's school consults you about the new RSE curriculum
Posted by niledynodely August 28, 02:54PM

seenbeen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> alice Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Has anyone looked on the gov. site for RSE.
>
> Here's the link
> [www.gov.uk]
> nships-education-relationships-and-sex-education-r
> se-and-health-education
>
> I haven't read it all but know what has actually
> been going on to date and I know that in the
> Equality section of PSHE/Citizenship LGBTQ+
> equality, or contraception is not discussed in
> some 'faith' schools as they have been allowed to
> opt out which reinforces intolerance and a
> dereliction of safeguarding duty in my opinion.
> The National Secular Society points out that
> 'faith' institutions may exploit loopholes.
> [www.secularism.org.uk]
> -told-to-take-account-of-pupils-religious-backgrou
> nd-in-rse
>
> Primary schools do NOT have to teach sex education
> at all but they do have to teach Relationships
> [www.gov.uk]
> nships-education-relationships-and-sex-education-r
> se-and-health-education/foreword-by-the-secretary-
> of-state
> second paragraph

Alice there is a distinction between the law which is sound, the guidance which is okay, and the materials which are produced, some of which are fine and some of which are dreadful. Most of the material comes under relationships. I have attended a Sex Education Forum webinar where the person giving the talk said that all the material would get through to the children somehow. So for example what comes under sex education will also be taught in health. Personally I have no issue with teaching about contraception stds etc etc in secondary school. All of this seems obvious. It is the other material which troubles me and there is quite a bit of it.


You can find out more about the resources here: [rsereview.org]

messageRe: Make sure that your child's school consults you about the new RSE curriculum
Posted by Siduhe August 28, 02:56PM

Quote:
niledynodely
Yes we have seen increases in child on child sexual abuse in schools. The idea of education is to provoke a child's interest and when they see cartoon videos of penises entering vaginas (Spring Fever) or legs splayed open with everything on view and when they see the free and easy attitude which adults around them have to sex I'm afraid that this contributes towards this abuse.

Wow. Just wow. You really went there. It's incredibly disappointing to see this sort of suggestion made in the context of school education. The idea that educational materials contribute to child sex abuse is alarmist, not backed up with any kind of evidence and frankly a gross misconception and misstatement of what is actually being taught.

I think there's a very genuine discussion to have about how best to educate young people about the world they are growing up in and to help them learn and develop without leaving them unprotected, but this an out and out smear.

I fully respect people's concerns about what their children are taught in schools, although I personally believe those concerns are best dealt with by actually getting in touch with the school and engaging on how the topic is taught rather than trying to whip a storm on an internet forum.

My personal view is that education about different kinds of families and how being different from "normal"(whether that's gay, bi, trans or something else) is ok is incredibly important for children who may be struggling with those issues from a comparatively early age and utterly miserable about it, if they don't know and aren't taught that there are other people like them out there. And yes, any education needs to be age appropriate, and just that "education". But conflating that kind of education with child sex abuse isn't the way to have a sensible debate about it.

messageRe: Make sure that your child's school consults you about the new RSE curriculum
Posted by ianr August 28, 03:26PM

Ancient Punch cartoon, probably
Schoolgirl 1: Hey Trace, what we got this afternoon?
Schoolgirl 2: RSE. I think it's double troilism.
Schoolgirl 1: Oh soddit, not again. I'm bunking off. There's Brief Encounter at the Essoldo.

messageRe: Make sure that your child's school consults you about the new RSE curriculum
Posted by j.a. August 28, 03:45PM

NN is a fervent Christian who opposes feminism, writes for the Daily Mail and Conservative Home on subjects that include why men are getting a raw deal, and has a pinned video at the top of her twitter feed which comes dangerously close to homophobia.

It would be wise to understand that there isn’t a debate to be had here, NN’s views are entrenched (in the 19th century) and underpinned by religious belief. She isn’t looking for discussion, she just wants the entire sexual education system changed to better reflect her personal options. She seems obsessed with anal sex and seems to think there was no homophobia in the sixties, seventies and eighties (haha!).

This - “You can find out more about the resources here: [rsereview.org]“ is just another link to the Values Foundation, who are clearly working an agenda, shall we say? And yes, I’ve read the link in its entirety.


Mostly she’s just blaming the education system for something that she’s fully empowered as a parent to handle.

TE44 is an anti-vaxxer; nuff said.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit was august 28, 04:04pm by j.a..

messageRe: Make sure that your child's school consults you about the new RSE curriculum
Posted by snowy August 28, 04:21PM

I guess she’s here as no one is listening to her views on twitter - her account is a small bubble and some sock puppets.

She’s like a quasi academic version of Uncle glen, and even he’s more liberal than her on LGBT rights.

messageRe: Make sure that your child's school consults you about the new RSE curriculum
Posted by j.a. August 28, 07:09PM

Yeah, Glen is very pro-LGBT rights. Hates everyone else though...

NN also retweets racist Twitter accounts, by the way. She’s keen for everyone to know that George Floyd and Jacob Blake has criminal records, not sure why (obviously we know why).

messageRe: Make sure that your child's school consults you about the new RSE curriculum
Posted by niledynodely August 28, 09:53PM

I don't have a problem with teaching being part of the discussion as long as they respect what my values are when talking to my children.

Also I haven't seen ANY of the points I make mentioned in any of the resources and I have looked at a lot of the resources.

Most of the attitudes I have seen expressed online are that if parents have more 'conservative' views (as I do) then the role of the teacher is to save our children from the dreadful brainwashing which will happen at the hands of their parents.

But if teachers treat the sexual act with the care, love and respect that it deserves I am very happy for them to teach my children.

messageRe: Make sure that your child's school consults you about the new RSE curriculum
Posted by niledynodely August 28, 09:57PM

Yes please everybody DO look at the evidence provided by The Values Foundation. It is in a linked google drive when you click on evidence as MOPS deescribes. There is mountaings of it. Look in particular at the letters written by parents at how upset their children have been when exposed to particular materials. But look at all of it and inform yourselves.

messageRe: Make sure that your child's school consults you about the new RSE curriculum
Posted by EDguy89 August 28, 09:57PM

niledynodely Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Alternatively this sort of stuff, especially
> taught to them by their school teacher could
> actually just put them off sex for a good while.
> We do know young people are having a lot less sex
> than my generation (I was born in the 60s)
> although they are having a much higher proportion
> of anal sex.
>
> Finally the real issue is that parents values and
> beliefs should be respected in the education of
> their children.

You were so close. SO CLOSE to getting the point.

You did it miss it though because you were too busy thinking about children learning about anal sex. It seems to consume your life. You should probably see a therapist about it. You've got problems that not even Jesus could solve.

However, I would like you to go back to the point where you talked about younger generations having less sex. Is it perhaps because, oh I don't know, they were taught what sex is? The consequences of sex. Pregnancy, STDs, abuse, things to look out for, etc.

I'll give you the answer. It's yes.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was august 28, 09:57pm by EDguy89.

messageRe: Make sure that your child's school consults you about the new RSE curriculum
Posted by niledynodely August 28, 10:22PM

j.a. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> NN is a fervent Christian who opposes feminism,
> writes for the Daily Mail and Conservative Home on
> subjects that include why men are getting a raw
> deal, and has a pinned video at the top of her
> twitter feed which comes dangerously close to
> homophobia.
>
> It would be wise to understand that there isn’t a
> debate to be had here, NN’s views are entrenched
> (in the 19th century) and underpinned by religious
> belief. She isn’t looking for discussion, she just
> wants the entire sexual education system changed
> to better reflect her personal options. She seems
> obsessed with anal sex and seems to think there
> was no homophobia in the sixties, seventies and
> eighties (haha!).
>
> This - “You can find out more about the resources
> here: “ is just another link to the Values
> Foundation, who are clearly working an agenda,
> shall we say? And yes, I’ve read the link in its
> entirety.
>
>
> Mostly she’s just blaming the education system for
> something that she’s fully empowered as a parent
> to handle.
>
> TE44 is an anti-vaxxer; nuff said.

Of course I think there used to be homophobia in the 60s, 70s and 80s - I don't know where you get that idea from. And there is still plenty of homophobia today.

But it isn't coming from me.

I don't think the approach we are taking in schools re: homophobia is the best one. There is a great deal of indoctrination going on and I would rather people accept gay people because they are accepting tolerant individuals than because they are indoctrinated. We are indoctrinating our children with ideologies rather than teaching them to be open minded and accepting. You only need to see the ire directed at people who hold conservative or traditional views to know that we are not teaching young people tolerance and acceptance.

I think there is an interesting discussion going on although I don't think you are part of it!

Someone raised the question of why I am here - it is because I want to know how other people think. I find on twitter you always end up talking to people who think the same as you so that isn't so valuable. Also there are not enough words for a decent discussion whereas here there are enough words.

I'm not obsessed with anal sex but RSE materials do seem to be. That is why I keep banging on about it.

Yes I would like to see the sex education system changed. For decades now we have had rising rates of sexually transmitted diseases, very high rates of teenage pregnancy, huge levels of mental health issues, and now we have young children confused about something as basic as their sex yet we keep doggedly ploughing on in the same direction. Yes I would really like to see it changed.

This isn't about my children. I just have this weird thing where I really care about the world I live in and future generations.

messageRe: Make sure that your child's school consults you about the new RSE curriculumattachment
Posted by ianr August 28, 10:55PM

> For decades now we have had rising rates
> of sexually transmitted diseases,
> very high rates of teenage pregnancy,

The attached chart, "Relative changes in age-specific conception rates, England and Wales, 1990 to 2018", is from [www.ons.gov.uk].

The full conception statistics spreadsheet for 2018 can be downloaded at [www.ons.gov.uk].



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit was august 28, 11:08pm by ianr.

Attachments: Relative changes in age-specific conception rates, England and Wales, 1990 to 2018.png (49.8KB)  
messageRe: Make sure that your child's school consults you about the new RSE curriculum
Posted by j.a. August 28, 11:41PM

niledynodely Wrote:

>
> Of course I think there used to be homophobia in
> the 60s, 70s and 80s - I don't know where you get
> that idea from.

From your own words - "And to be honest my generation grew up by and large perfectly accepting of gay people without having to go through some sort of programme in order to accept them."

That's absolute rubbish. Homophobia was rampant in your generation. You personally may not have been (though the pinned video on your twitter feed makes me question that), but if you think it wasn't basically part and parcel of life then you're deluded.




And there is still plenty of
> homophobia today.
>
> But it isn't coming from me.

Debatable.

>
> I don't think the approach we are taking in
> schools re: homophobia is the best one. There is a
> great deal of indoctrination going on and I would
> rather people accept gay people because they are
> accepting tolerant individuals than because they
> are indoctrinated.

That's generally what's going on with normal people. This is London in 2020. No one cares if you're gay. Well, no one reasonable anyway. However you don't have to go too far out of London to step back in time 30 years, so yeah, maybe some people do need to be helped to understand that it's not the end of the world if little Alfie has two dads.

We are indoctrinating our
> children with ideologies rather than teaching them
> to be open minded and accepting.

No, no we really aren't. Being a reasonable and tolerant human isn't an ideology. It's basic good manners.

You only need to
> see the ire directed at people who hold
> conservative or traditional views to know that we
> are not teaching young people tolerance and
> acceptance.

For 'traditional' read 'outdated and unwilling to accept others views'. Check yourself first before assuming it's other people who are displaying intolerance.


>
> I think there is an interesting discussion going
> on although I don't think you are part of it!

Ah, diddums. You don't like being challenged (well, you do write for the Daily Heil)? Well, surely you and TE44 can just reinforce each others views via PM. I note that you aren't exactly having a discussion; for example you responded to Mops first post but ignored her subsequent two where she disagreed with you. Hardly having a debate now is it?
For the record I think the views you hold are dangerous, and if you were in charge of my daughters sexual education I'd be making your life extremely difficult.

>
> Someone raised the question of why I am here - it
> is because I want to know how other people think.

I can save you some time. A lot of people disagree with you.


> I find on twitter you always end up talking to
> people who think the same as you so that isn't so
> valuable. Also there are not enough words for a
> decent discussion whereas here there are enough
> words.
>
> I'm not obsessed with anal sex but RSE materials
> do seem to be. That is why I keep banging on about
> it.

No, sorry, don't believe you. You bring it up repeatedly, you bought BDSM into it, you are manifestly intolerant of any sexual identity that does not fit with your religiously-framed view of how people should be allowed to express themselves physically. You refuse to accept that others lead healthy, loving lives in the embrace of a variant of sexuality that you would decry as sinful and immoral.


>
> Yes I would like to see the sex education system
> changed. For decades now we have had rising rates
> of sexually transmitted diseases, very high rates
> of teenage pregnancy, huge levels of mental health
> issues, and now we have young children confused
> about something as basic as their sex yet we keep
> doggedly ploughing on in the same direction. Yes I
> would really like to see it changed.

And you think AAALLLLL of that is because of RSE? You think we're descending into some kind of cesspit of sexual depravity because of that?
Rising rates of STD's? Debatable. 2018 was up by 5% on the previous couple of years, where it hit stabilised after dropping down from the high points of 2012-15, and now is generally hanging around where it was in the years 07-12. You're trying to give an impression of skyrocketing STI's and that isn't the case.

'Very high rates of teenage preganancy'? Wrong. Just wrong. It's actually declining.
[www.nuffieldtrust.org.uk]
"The under-18 conception rate has decreased for ten years running. In 2017, there were 16,740 conceptions to women aged under 18 in England and Wales, equating to 17.9 conceptions per 1,000 women. This was a 5.3% decrease compared with 2016, and a 57% decrease compared with 2007. There are many factors that could explain recent reductions in under-18 conceptions, including programmes to improve access to contraceptives, a shift in aspirations of young women towards education, and the perception of stigma associated with being a teenage mother."

So you're talking rubbish there. And you say you're a researcher...

Mental health issues? Yes, there's teenage mental health issues. Part of that - a large part - is better understanding and awareness of mental health in general. It's not just in teenagers that it's rising, adults too. It's got very little to do with RSE, and it's frankly a strawman argument to suggest otherwise.

As for trying to bring in the trans argument - nope, sorry, not going there. Nice try, not biting. That's an entirely different discussion; you started this talking about basic sexual education and trying to make out that having open and frank conversations with teenagers in the modern age was dangerous and could lead to the downfall of society.

You don't like RSE, mainly because it conflicts with religiously-informed beliefs that you hold very strongly, and you're looking for stuff to back up your argument. You haven't found it yet, you just think you have.

>
> This isn't about my children. I just have this
> weird thing where I really care about the world I
> live in and future generations.

And so do the rest of us. And frankly I think you might want to ask yourself why your views are in the minority yet the world still keeps functioning?

Purely apropos of, you know, nothing at all, did you happen to see what went down with Jerry and Rebeccca Falwell? Wow, I mean, they presumably had exactly the kind of attitude to sex that you do, and yet he would stand in the corner of the bedroom watching his wife with the pool boy? Yup, telling people not to do something, that's a sure fire winner, every time...

messageRe: Make sure that your child's school consults you about the new RSE curriculum
Posted by Mops August 29, 12:01AM

niledynodely Wrote:
>
> Of course I think there used to be homophobia in
> the 60s, 70s and 80s - I don't know where you get
> that idea from. And there is still plenty of
> homophobia today.
>
> But it isn't coming from me.


NN/ OP

In your post of Thursday evening at 11:55pm you said:

“I don't think we should make anal sex seem normal, it really has some serious health risks and I think we should tell young people about this. The only reason we don't is because we are afraid of being homophobic but I think it is far more damaging to gay people to not properly inform them of the risks of anal sex. I think the vast majority of us just accept gay people without thinking to much about what they get up to. And to be honest my generation grew up by and large perfectly accepting of gay people without having to go through some sort of programme in order to accept them.“

Having told us you’re of a 60s generation, I believe this is where you have suggested homophobia was not prevalent in the latter half of the 20th century.

I certainly hope you don’t cherry pick resources for your academic research with the same confirmation bias you apply to your homophobic rhetoric.

OP, you assert that you’re not homophobic. Why don’t we call a spade a spade here. I think the article “the myth that gays [sic] are bullied at school” for ‘The Conservation Woman’ is a pretty good example of your deep seated homophobia (together with the aforementioned twitter video).

It’s a shame you do not realise that non-heterosexual relationships will exist and LGBTQ+ identifying people will continue to be born whether you like it or not. The option isn’t whether these sexualities or sexual preferences exist; it’s whether we include each other as equals or whether we perpetuate or exacerbate intolerance, hatred and bigotry. Given the choice between including and accepting or vilifying someone, based on something entirely involuntary (and a “protected characteristic” might I add), surely there’s no question.

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