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Which pubs, bars, restaurants and take-aways do you avoid?
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message20 mph limit?
Posted by apbremer May 06, 02:53PM

I had read that this was advisory and not actually enforceable. A friend however has just had a speeding ticket for 25mph in Islington. Surely the whole of London will grind to a halt? Has anyone had a similar penalty around here?

messageRe: 20 mph limit?
Posted by ed26 May 06, 03:04PM

I think the law / local by-laws changed a few years ago. Previously, the "20 zones" were not enforceable but a normal 20mph limit is.

The speed cameras outside Harris Academy and Dulwich Wood House definitely go off at <30 mph.

messageRe: 20 mph limit?
Posted by mrwb May 06, 05:15PM

My understanding is the police don't activily enforce it, so you won't be pulled over. It's still possible to get a camera ticket though.

There seem to be 4 cameras is Islington:

[islingtontribune.com]

If you want to find out it Southwark submit an FOI request?

messageRe: 20 mph limit?
Posted by dimples May 07, 11:40PM

I got a warning letter for driving at 25 miles an hour
Just before Dulwich library and next time a speeding course or fine !!
I was zapped by a group of people standing in for the police checking speeds .
Iím not a fast driver and even at 25 mph other people get cross and drive up my bumper or
Overtake me ,today someone nearly crashed over taking me and missed an oncoming car by a couple of inches !!

messageRe: 20 mph limit?
Posted by KidKruger May 08, 07:18AM

A 20mph restriction makes roads for drivers and pedestrians safer.

messageRe: 20 mph limit?
Posted by Asset May 08, 08:25AM

and if everyone stuck to it, the traffic would actually flow better and we'd all get around quicker, if we must go in a car...

messageRe: 20 mph limit?
Posted by rollflick May 08, 08:28AM

All speed limits on public roads are enforceable. Police used to object to creation of 20mph zones unless they were 'self-enforcing' but UK traffic regulations were changed in 2016 about this.

Though police (or speed cameras) won't normally enforce unless you're going at 10%+2mph over a speed limit, they will in certain circumstances. Such as if even 20mph is unsafe for conditions, e.g. lots of kids spilling out of school. Or if you have been reported multiple times by Community Speed Watch (CSW): [www.communityspeedwatch.org]

Sounds like dimples has been reported by one of these, which is now operating regularly in Southwark.

messageRe: 20 mph limit?
Posted by Penguin68 May 08, 08:33AM

The major problem with the 20mph limit is that modern cars sold in the UK are optimised to run at 30mph (that's just a matter of tuning) so that the car can appear to 'struggle' at a steady 20mph (if you are used to listening to the car to change up and down). But just get used to it. The difference in damage to human bodies that extra 10mph makes is significant.

messageRe: 20 mph limit?
Posted by rahrahrah May 08, 08:58AM

The 20 mph limit on Sydenham Hill is a bit unnecessary in my opinion. Almost everywhere else it's in force, I'm massively in favour.

messageRe: 20 mph limit?
Posted by JohnL May 08, 10:38AM

Extra 10mph not worth the risk of hitting someone - even if it's not technically your fault.

messageRe: 20 mph limit?
Posted by Penguin68 May 08, 12:09PM

The 20 mph limit on Sydenham Hill is a bit unnecessary in my opinion.

Agreed, it's not really in any way a suburban residential street comparable to others round ED and with its wide pavements, people (and children) are far less likely to be forced into the road. It is interesting that the speed camera there is sited at the bottom of a dip in the road, where a car's speed is being aided by gravity - a cynic might suggest that a revenue generating conscious council might find that appealing - although I know of only one person actually flashed and fined there.

messageRe: 20 mph limit?
Posted by mrwb May 08, 12:59PM

I would like to see the police enforce the mobile phone / texting driving rules more.

Every day I walk / drive around and see drivers using their phones. To me it's unbelievably dangerous, can't they just wait until they're parked somewhere?

I was walking on Townley road this morning and it looked to me like even a coach driver was on the phone, or at least looking down tapping in to something, shocking really.

messageRe: 20 mph limit?
Posted by AylwardS May 08, 01:17PM

There are a few places the posted speed limit seems odd but that applies to all laws / regulations - you can never have ďone rule fits allĒ

I frequently get hooted for driving at 20 mph, and overtaken, but how often can you drive over 20 with London traffic?

We learn more and things change. I remember my dad saying that when he was younger he would go out with his friends and the designated driver would drink. This was before drink driving laws and knowing the impact on your reaction times he wouldnít do it now but then they didnít know. In 20 years time will it be as unacceptable to speed in a 20 limit zone or use your mobile phone while driving so most people wonít even think about it?

Iíve been overtaken while sticking to the posted 20 limit only to join the queue of traffic further down the road behind the car that overtook me. Whatís the point?

messageRe: 20 mph limit?
Posted by wulfhound May 08, 04:19PM

+1 @mrwb, a few plain clothes police on unmarked bikes would soon put paid to this.

Sydenham Hill.. I'd agree if they put a protected cycle lane in (and it's not like they're short of space to do so). Preferably the flat-kerb type like at Crystal Palace roundabout, not the wands which are admittedly somewhat unsightly en masse. Where general traffic and bikes mix due to lack of a proper cycle lane, 20 is sensible and necessary.

messageRe: 20 mph limit?
Posted by rahrahrah May 09, 11:00AM

Agree about the need for a cycle lane on sydenham hill.

messageRe: 20 mph limit?
Posted by malumbu May 09, 12:51PM

If you want the authorities to take action then campaign, lobby your MP, political parties and local authority. Since Blair's Bloody nose by the unholy and anti-environment hauliers and farmers in 2000, governments have backed off anything that looks like a war on motorists. It's seen as a vote loser and to be your God given right to drive how you want, where you want, when you want and sod the consequences. Car occupancy is falling (there's a good start to reducing emissions). On my soap box as a professional tree hugger. See my rant on Court Lane!

messageRe: 20 mph limit?
Posted by Pugwash May 09, 01:38PM

I have been involved with the Community Traffic Watch - local residents who feel that their road/area attracts drivers who go at excessive speeds can request a traffic watch. Speed guns are provided by the Police and Police have to be present during the watch. Hi Vis waistcoats have to be worn. Anyone caught going over 25mph has their registration recorded and these numbers are collated. If the same registration number appears several times re speeding, then further letter/action is taken.

messageRe: 20 mph limit?
Posted by seenbeen May 09, 02:02PM

someone should remind the speeding cyclists....I'm dreading the new 'healthy streets'.

messageRe: 20 mph limit?
Posted by peckham_ryu May 09, 02:03PM

AylwardS Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I frequently get hooted for driving at 20 mph,

Might be worth checking your carís speedometer against something that tells you speed using GPS (like many smartphone navigation apps). Indicated speed on speedometers is always at least a little bit higher than actual speed. On my car itís only 2mph so shouldnít be enough to justify impatience, but my old Ford Focus was a good 5mph off - and Iíd be annoyed at being stuck behind someone doing 15mph!

messageRe: 20 mph limit?
Posted by figgins May 09, 02:27PM

"someone should remind the speeding cyclists....I'm dreading the new 'healthy streets'."

Me too. I much prefer tons of metal zooming up and down, emitting toxic fumes, destroying the environment, using up the earth's finite resources, killing our children, shortening all our lives. God, yes, give me that instead of "healthy streets" any day of the week. "Healthy streets"? Do me a favour.

messageRe: 20 mph limit?
Posted by exdulwicher May 09, 06:25PM

seenbeen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> someone should remind the speeding cyclists....I'm
> dreading the new 'healthy streets'.

It's quite astonishing how there can be complaints about being held up by cyclists (and there always are - the usual rants about how someone was "stuck behind" them while they trundled away at 10mph for miles upon miles) while there are also complaints about speeding cyclists. Which is it - they're either too fast or too slow uless you've encountered Schroedingers Cyclists - simultaneously too fast and too slow.

They "come out of nowhere" yet can also be heard shouting from miles away.
They dress all in black and can't be seen yet if one jumps a red light, every motorist around seems able to see them instantly.
They wear lurid hi-vis (see note above about how they dress all in black).
Simultaneously so fast that they're overtaking cars in 20 zones but so slow that they're holding up traffic.

It'd just be nice if there was some consistency, that's all. winking smiley
Quote:
The major problem with the 20mph limit is that modern cars sold in the UK are optimised to run at 30mph (that's just a matter of tuning)

That's an urban myth put about by people who are rubbish at driving. I was in a 19 reg Mercedes last weekend (sadly not mine!) and it was a VERY powerful car - twin turbos and a 2L petrol engine. It sat there in 20mph and 30mph zones at 20 and 30 respectively with no issues at all - in fact the car did most of it for me. Intelligent road sign recognition linked to the speedo and cruise control, it auto adjusted. Was actually incredibly easy to drive. Frankly there was zero excuse for speeding in it.

messageRe: 20 mph limit?
Posted by Sally Eva May 10, 07:14AM

This is what I was told when I discussed being tail-gated on my bike by cars with threateningly loud, revving engines. I had always told myself that the driver didn't mean to threaten me -- they were just unable to control their car -- I'm not sure that either was re-assuring.

And yes, I was told (possibly by exdulwicher) that a good driver should be able to not do this


exdulwicher Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> seenbeen Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > someone should remind the speeding
> cyclists....I'm
> > dreading the new 'healthy streets'.
>
> It's quite astonishing how there can be complaints
> about being held up by cyclists (and there always
> are - the usual rants about how someone was "stuck
> behind" them while they trundled away at 10mph for
> miles upon miles) while there are also complaints
> about speeding cyclists. Which is it - they're
> either too fast or too slow uless you've
> encountered Schroedingers Cyclists -
> simultaneously too fast and too slow.
>
> They "come out of nowhere" yet can also be heard
> shouting from miles away.
> They dress all in black and can't be seen yet if
> one jumps a red light, every motorist around seems
> able to see them instantly.
> They wear lurid hi-vis (see note above about how
> they dress all in black).
> Simultaneously so fast that they're overtaking
> cars in 20 zones but so slow that they're holding
> up traffic.
>
> It'd just be nice if there was some consistency,
> that's all. winking smiley
>
> The major problem with the 20mph limit is that
> modern cars sold in the UK are optimised to run at
> 30mph (that's just a matter of tuning)
>
> That's an urban myth put about by people who are
> rubbish at driving. I was in a 19 reg Mercedes
> last weekend (sadly not mine!) and it was a VERY
> powerful car - twin turbos and a 2L petrol engine.
> It sat there in 20mph and 30mph zones at 20 and 30
> respectively with no issues at all - in fact the
> car did most of it for me. Intelligent road sign
> recognition linked to the speedo and cruise
> control, it auto adjusted. Was actually incredibly
> easy to drive. Frankly there was zero excuse for
> speeding in it.

messageRe: 20 mph limit?
Posted by first mate May 10, 07:42AM

There are good and bad drivers and the same goes for cyclists. I've had cars driving right up behind me revving loudly, the driver gesticulating and cursing, when I have adhered to 20mph- which I always try to do. However, I have also had cyclists kick the side of my car and others bang the roof as they passed me, for no other reason than I was in a car.

I reckon aggressive car drivers will behave in similar fashion on a bike. Let's not make it an us and them.

messageRe: 20 mph limit?
Posted by wulfhound May 10, 10:01AM

"However, I have also had cyclists kick the side of my car and others bang the roof as they passed me, for no other reason than I was in a car."

Given the number of cars on the road, if those cyclists actually exist, they'd have very sore hands by the time they got where they were going. (And probably sore everything else.. do that to the wrong person around here and you'd end up getting very badly hurt). Did you get caught up in the middle of a Critical Mass ride or something?

There are certainly some aggro people on bikes (more so in West London.. Chelsea Embankment is really bad for some reason), but in general physical exercise and fresh air will chill people out a bit. Driving in London can be immensely frustrating if you're trying to get someplace quicker - on a bike (unless a power assisted or very expensive model) you're mostly limited by your own ability to make it go fast. It's much easier to be the Big Man behind the wheel of a 4x4 or white van than on a push bike.. not saying people won't try it on, but they're much more easily brought down to size.

messageRe: 20 mph limit?
Posted by first mate May 10, 10:24AM

I have no idea if the individuals who did this to me had sore hands or feet for that matter- part of me hopes they did as it was unpleasant to be on the receiving end of. My point is, it does and can happen and that is down to human nature and the individual's ability to cope with frustration in a social manner, whether in a car or on a bike. Sadly, there are a lot of aggressive people in a hurry - that's life.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit was may 10, 10:31am by first mate.

messageRe: 20 mph limit?
Posted by malumbu May 13, 10:38PM

I've hit a few cars. Rarely though. An open palmed slap on the boot/tailgate to show my displeasure when they drive head to tail over the traffic lights and block the pedestrian's right of way when the lights change. I tried other tactics in the past, yelling or trying to remind drivers not to do this would usually end in conflict. The slap does no damage, gives them a bit of a jolt, and generally does not end in verbal abuse.

Anyway, most of us road users get on irrespective of whatever means of transport so always wonder why some feel that this is the opportunity to have a pop at cyclists. The first para was just to get a few of you anti cyclists going.

I did some research a few years ago based on the ksi (killed and seriously injured) published by DfT. Cyclists causing injury to pedestrians is pretty rare and the data does not say who is at fault, or how/where it happened eg pavement, road, running red lights etc. All of my near misses have been pedestrians crossing without looking (worsened in recent years by phones, texting, music etc). Of course we cycling heroes adapt by watching out and anticipating, as we have to similarly do for metal boxes (often where the drivers are similarly distracted).

The stats also show that pedestrians are far more likely to be hurt by drivers mounting the pavement. So I worry that pedestrians may be hurt by cyclists as they are avoiding the pavement due to the risk of a car mounting it.

messageRe: 20 mph limit?
Posted by Bic Basher May 14, 01:39AM

Apparently the 20mph speed limit will be introduced to TfL managed roads in the near future. This would include the section of LL between Melford Road and Wood Vale, along with major trunk roads such as the A23, Old Kent Road, North/South Circular etc.

As a bus user, the service has got worse since the speed reduction. It can take 20 mins to get from the Horniman end of LL to Dog Kennel Hill off-peak when traffic is light. Not helped by the enforcement of gaps in the service where drivers are instructed to wait at bus stops.

messageRe: 20 mph limit?
Posted by JohnL May 14, 10:56AM

first mate Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There are good and bad drivers and the same goes
> for cyclists. I've had cars driving right up
> behind me revving loudly, the driver gesticulating
> and cursing, when I have adhered to 20mph- which I
> always try to do. However, I have also had
> cyclists kick the side of my car and others bang
> the roof as they passed me, for no other reason
> than I was in a car.
>
> I reckon aggressive car drivers will behave in
> similar fashion on a bike. Let's not make it an us
> and them.

They'll be the same ones who honk loudly at 4:00AM.

messageRe: 20 mph limit?
Posted by DulwichFox May 14, 03:01PM

Having a MAX speed of 20 MPH does catch some motorists out and could be a good be a nice little earner.

BUT a real money spinner on Lordship Lane would be a MIN speed of 20 MPH and fine any motorist not acheiving 20 MPH
Much of the time it is impossible to do 20 MPH.

I should be working for Southwark Council.

messageRe: 20 mph limit?
Posted by exdulwicher May 14, 07:39PM

Bic Basher Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Apparently the 20mph speed limit will be
> introduced to TfL managed roads in the near
> future. This would include the section of LL
> between Melford Road and Wood Vale, along with
> major trunk roads such as the A23, Old Kent Road,
> North/South Circular etc.
>
> As a bus user, the service has got worse since the
> speed reduction. It can take 20 mins to get from
> the Horniman end of LL to Dog Kennel Hill off-peak
> when traffic is light. Not helped by the
> enforcement of gaps in the service where drivers
> are instructed to wait at bus stops.

TfL's documentation on it:
content.tfl.gov.uk/speed-emissions-and-health.pdf

Lower speed limits means a shift to more walking and cycling, so fewer car journeys. And therefore the buses can get around more easily. Buses are only held up by crap driving, parked cars in bus lanes, too many cars on the road. Get rid of most of that and you get nice clear bus lanes.

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