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messageRe: East Dulwich: new cyclists
Posted by malumbu April 10, 05:02PM

AntP2015 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Just fixed my puncture and going to go out for a
> ride (to the shops and to do some exercise). I
> have seen more people closer than two metres in
> shops, on paths and in parks than on the road
> cycling. Just be nice and don't be a t*&t then
> we'll all be okay.

Hope you had a nice ride, It's a lovely day. I got the chance to talk to some police officers, at a reasonable distance, and one shared some hand sanitizer with me. Note: fellow cyclists, do take something to clean your hands with at start and end of journey hand if you stop for a rest (rest not sunbathe)

I think that this is the best line I've seen here for weeks: just be nice and don't be a t*&t then
> we'll all be okay

messageRe: East Dulwich: new cyclists
Posted by mako April 10, 06:05PM

It might be a 'nice line' but unfortunately it is not true. If being nice includes needlessly transmitting the virus (because the guidelines say I can even if the message is so clearly 'STAY AT HOME'}, then we certainly will not all be okay.

messageRe: East Dulwich: new cyclists
Posted by exdulwicher April 11, 10:02AM

mako Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It might be a 'nice line' but unfortunately it is
> not true. If being nice includes needlessly
> transmitting the virus (because the guidelines say
> I can even if the message is so clearly 'STAY AT
> HOME'}, then we certainly will not all be okay.

Firstly, the paper you linked to on the previous page - that's gone viral (sorry...) but its important to note that it's not a "study" or a peer-reviwed science paper or even a validated theory, it's all been done using some (admittedly quite nice) fluid dynamics models. There's a more detailed look at it here:
[www.bicycling.com]
(I'm not saying it's not got some interesting ideas and obviously the further apart you stay from people the better but don't take it as gospel).

And the point of this thread was to help and encourage people new to cycle commuting - potentially key workers trying to get to/from work without using what is left of the public transport system - and it's been taken off topic several times including the standard and wholly unneccesary digs at "cycling/cyclists" in general. With the roads far quieter than normal and as a way of avoiding crowded pulic transport, cycling and walking are the best ways for key workers to get to and from their place of work at the moment, it's allowed by law and guidance so yeah, I'm going with the "be nice, don't be a ****" approach all round.

Just bear in mind that the rider you're seeing go up that hill is very unlikely to be someone out for 100 miles in the sunshine and far more likely to be a nurse or doctor or delivery driver going to or from their shift.

Great work with the info you've posted @Sally Eva

messageRe: East Dulwich: new cyclists
Posted by mako April 11, 03:02PM

Literally no-one on this thread has suggested that essential workers shouldnt be allowed to cycle, or even that people shouldn't cycle to do necessary shopping. But otherwise listen to every single NHS worker and they will all beg you to otherwise stay at home. Its really that simple. Please dont come back with 'I'm allowed' 'Others are worse''the science isnt 100% clear'. It is. Staying at home saves lives.

messageRe: East Dulwich: new cyclists
Posted by Sally Eva April 11, 05:09PM

Maybe we could agree on this:

[www.gov.uk]

1. When am I allowed to leave the house?
You should only leave the house for very limited purposes:

shopping for basic necessities, for example food and medicine, which must be as infrequent as possible
one form of exercise a day, for example a run, walk, or cycle - alone or with members of your household
any medical need, including to donate blood, avoid or escape risk of injury or harm, or to provide care or to help a vulnerable person
travelling for work purposes, but only where you cannot work from home

messageRe: East Dulwich: new cyclists
Posted by mako April 11, 07:20PM

I agree that you are allowed out. Again not sure anyone is saying you are not legally allowed out.

Can you agree that pretty much every NHS worker and every daily briefing repeatedly says the same thing. Stay at home, save lives. Its really quite simple.

messageRe: East Dulwich: new cyclists
Posted by exdulwicher April 12, 11:41AM

I get the stay at home message, I agree with it.

BUT:
1) that's not the point of this thread - it's to help/advise/encourage/support people who are perhaps getting back into cycling or realising that it's an option to get to/from their key job. There are also millions of people out there with gym memberhips or who went to spin/dance classes, yoga, swimming or whatever who now don't have those options and need another form of exercise. There's a limit to how much you can jump up and down to Joe Wicks in your living room and it is recognised that exercise is vitally important for physical and mental health, boosts your immune system (important for fighting off infections) and so that's allowed, obviously under caveats like you're not driving off to Wales for a hill walk or cycling to Brighton and back.

2) shouting the stay at home message is beginning to lead to even further anxiety and it's actually led to some serious verbal assault on cyclists in Regent's Park from people who've decided that their interpretation of the rules is the one they will choose to enforce on everyone else.
[wavelengthmag.com]

That references the situation in Brockwell Park amongst others.

Yes, stay at home if you can. But if you're going out for one of the reasons listed then YES, that's allowed and hey, here's a great thread to help and support you in cycling that journey!

messageRe: East Dulwich: new cyclists
Posted by malumbu April 12, 12:07PM

Good article - extracting a couple of paras:

And there have been a few examples of behaviour that makes the heart sing. Like the inspiring stories of community efforts taking place in small towns up and down the country, or the fact that 750,000 people volunteered to help the NHS in just three days.

However, these stories have been dwarfed by the dramatic rise in public shaming brought on by the lockdown measures, driven in equal parts by the click hungry media and battalions of furious keyboard warriors.

messageRe: East Dulwich: new cyclists
Posted by first mate April 12, 02:03PM

The guidelines are blurred and pretty much leave things to the good judgement of individuals. Some people will be intensely relaxed about being 2 feet from people they donít know, for others 13 feet may not be enough. People also have varying levels of anxiety motivated by totally different things. Additionally, govt advice is generic and population density is very different in the countryside to that of city living. I guess weíll have a better idea of how we are doing in around two weeks time. The key thing is that the NHS does not become overwhelmed. Let us hope and pray the numbers start to come down and we can start to return to greater freedoms all round, sooner rather than later.

I donít think there in any deliberate shaming or idle keyboard warrior activity going down and if there is I donít think it applies in just one direction- I very much doubt views expressed on this forum have led directly to assaults on cyclists in Regentís Park and it is unfair to conflate that behaviour with views expressed here. I do think there are very strong differences of opinion and we just need to accept that. Those who are themselves vulnerable or living with a vulnerable relative or working for the NHS, have good reason to find the sheer volume of people out and about extremely stressful. Especially the former, where every journey out of the home may feel hazardous and the lack of control because other people do not have the same perception and so behave differently, only adds to that anxiety.

I said from the start that it was absolutely right that key workers should be able to cycle or take other forms of transport- whatever helps them really. I also donít have an issue with short cycle rides for exercise or longer ones in the early hours when the roads are clear, so long as loads of people donít start doing it. Though well intentioned, I am not so sure about seeing this as an ideal time to encourage non- cyclists (other then key workers) to get on their bikes, only because one wonders about the logistics, but I doubt the council would support this unless it was sound.

messageRe: East Dulwich: new cyclists
Posted by Occamsracer April 13, 07:30AM

First mate, I know you're keen to get out on the bike but please just stay inside. It's that simple.

messageRe: East Dulwich: new cyclists
Posted by first mate April 13, 09:22AM

Not sure I understand your comment, though your name it is undoubtedly a clever play on the current debate.

messageRe: East Dulwich: new cyclists
Posted by Occamsracer April 13, 09:29AM

I dont Know what you mean. I'm just a normal 105 year old who needs to walk their 15 very well behaved dogs, dogue de Bordeaux, Newfoundland, English mastiff etc, three times a day. Where I live it's uphill both ways to the park so I have to drive my van there.

Yesterday I saw a young family, all on bikes which much have cost £10k each, cycling along, laughing. I read on the internet that a single laugh can generate a viroid plume in excess of 100 square metres, thus this young family was blanketing most of the neighborhood in viruses. Very dangerous behaviour, should be stopped.

messageRe: East Dulwich: new cyclists
Posted by fishbiscuits April 13, 09:56AM

Of all the recent behaviour I've seen... people having picnics or sunbathing in the park, people popping out for a takeaway coffee or ice creams, garden parties and BBQs, groups of friends out together, people walking side by side and hogging the whole pavement, groups having drinkies in their front yard (less than 1m from the pavement), taking the bus when you could walk for 20-30 minutes. And according to this forum, runners bombing down Lordship Lane during shopping hours. Cycling doesn't seem like our biggest problem.

messageRe: East Dulwich: new cyclists
Posted by Sally Eva April 13, 11:30AM

This is not to do with cycling so I am continuing to derail my own thread but Jason Leitch, the national clinical director of Scotland, seems to have comms skills that no one in the UK government has.

This is him on the "three harms" the damage of coronavirus, the damage to everyone who has cancer, kidney failure and all other ills who may miss treatment and the damage inflicted by lockdown (mental health, economy, domestic violence)

[twitter.com]

It's the BBC Scotland "everything has a cost" video. The whole thing is interesting.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was april 13, 12:03pm by Sally Eva.

messageRe: East Dulwich: new cyclists
Posted by malumbu April 13, 12:59PM

Yes, it would be good to get this across wider. Apologies I am going to steal this link and put it on the lounge. Lovely cycle today, bit chilly, roads empty (no excuse to the two boy racers at more than double the speed limit), a few cyclists but loads of space for walkers, families, joggers, cyclist and one person cheating on an electric scooter. Impeccable behaviour on the one pinch point, the footbridge between Ladywell and Catford on the Waterlink Way. Everyone being polite, smiles and thank yous.

messageRe: East Dulwich: new cyclists
Posted by mako April 13, 04:25PM

Sally Eva Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This is not to do with cycling so I am continuing
> to derail my own thread but Jason Leitch, the
> national clinical director of Scotland, seems to
> have comms skills that no one in the UK government
> has.
>
> This is him on the "three harms" the damage of
> coronavirus, the damage to everyone who has
> cancer, kidney failure and all other ills who may
> miss treatment and the damage inflicted by
> lockdown (mental health, economy, domestic
> violence)
>
> [twitter.com]
>
> It's the BBC Scotland "everything has a cost"
> video. The whole thing is interesting.

He says that the priority now is stopping coronavirus and in the long run we need to balance the cost in terms of mental health etc. he isnt arguing that from day 1 of a relatively short lock down everyone needs to hop out for a jolly on their bikes.
Sally please reply to: Can you agree that pretty much every NHS worker and every daily briefing repeatedly says the same thing. Stay at home, save lives. Its really quite simple.

messageRe: East Dulwich: new cyclists
Posted by malumbu April 13, 04:46PM

Watch/listen to the video. It explains it really well. Cooping people up 24/7 does harm, unless you are fortunate enough to be in a large house with extensive grounds. The key message is stay inside, which is being echoed by those most closely associated with the crisis. Stay inside with the exception of essential journeys, for food, and for health reasons, including exercise. Once a day. In your essential journeys socially distance, don't use this as excuse to meet up with friends, play football in the park, sun bathe etc. You will not get 100% compliance but it's pretty good.

By stressing the stay inside this will discourage the worst abuses. This is a measured balanced position by government, recognising that we are not in a police state, and the resources that would require which can be much better used (and the danger of civil unrest if we do have more draconian restrictions).

If you want to stay inside 25/7 fine. Please stop demonising the rest of us.

messageRe: East Dulwich: new cyclists
Posted by fishbiscuits April 13, 05:01PM

mako Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sally please reply to: Can you agree that pretty much...

Sally has already explained herself perfectly well, and you are in no position to demand anything.

messageRe: East Dulwich: new cyclists
Posted by Sally Eva April 13, 05:33PM

malumbu Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Watch/listen to the video. It explains it really
> well. Cooping people up 24/7 does harm, unless
> you are fortunate enough to be in a large house
> with extensive grounds. The key message is stay
> inside, which is being echoed by those most
> closely associated with the crisis. Stay inside
> with the exception of essential journeys, for
> food, and for health reasons, including exercise.
> Once a day. In your essential journeys socially
> distance, don't use this as excuse to meet up with
> friends, play football in the park, sun bathe etc.
> You will not get 100% compliance but it's pretty
> good.
>
> By stressing the stay inside this will discourage
> the worst abuses. This is a measured balanced
> position by government, recognising that we are
> not in a police state, and the resources that
> would require which can be much better used (and
> the danger of civil unrest if we do have more
> draconian restrictions).
>
> If you want to stay inside 25/7 fine. Please stop
> demonising the rest of us.

He is the national clinical director of Scotland. This is the first time I have heard anyone say that mental health and domestic violence referrals have already risen -- predictable but surprising to see it so quickly.

messageRe: East Dulwich: new cyclists
Posted by mako April 13, 07:40PM

Sally asked a question 'can we agree that..', I simply responded 'please reply to my response.' Not a demand Fishbiscuits. malumbu- obviously i dont want to stay inside 24/7. i have chosen to because I think it in the greater good. I understand that people need to go out, but dont understand those who dont need to and starting talking about police state and civil unrest. You have been asked to stay inside for a few weeks to save lives. The impact on mental and physical health for the vast majority by only going out to shops would be minimal in that time and its pure selfishness driving a lot of your arguments. Greater infection rates are also likely to extend measures which is a much bigger threat to mental and physical state.

messageRe: East Dulwich: new cyclists
Posted by mako April 13, 08:03PM

Sally you have quoted Jason Leitch before in him stating that Convid 19 is not airbourne and that panting is therefore not a problem. the WHO quotes 'People can catch COVID-19 from others who have the virus. The disease can spread from person to person through small droplets from the nose or mouth which are spread when a person with COVID-19 coughs or exhales.' panting therefore clearly is a major risk.

messageRe: East Dulwich: new cyclists
Posted by seenbeen April 13, 10:43PM

Look at the timer at the top- it takes 6 minutes for the particles to settle....
[www.cbsnews.com]

messageRe: East Dulwich: new cyclists
Posted by exdulwicher April 14, 11:28AM

seenbeen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Look at the timer at the top- it takes 6 minutes
> for the particles to settle....
> [www.cbsnews.com]-
> spread-covid-19-grocery-store-researchers/

That report is a bit like the "study" with cyclists and runners (linked earlier in this thread) and how they leave plumes of aerosol in their wake. Some unverified / unreviewed theories, some nice modelling (everything looks good with some shiny graphics) and some interesting ideas but the ultimate conclusion from that (if it is vaguely accurate) is simply to shut EVERYTHING. No supermarkets, no shopping of any kind, everyone locked up 24/7 except for people who would come to your door and deliver a tray of food like the catering trolley on an airline.

Going back to what Sally said, it's obvious that there's a balance to be struck here - such extreme measures are likely to do more harm than good in the long term.

Personally, so long as social distancing is adhered to, I see no issue with cycling to work (if you're a key worker) or heading out for a spin around the park with the family just to get some fresh air. It does everyone good (especially kids), it's within the guidelines and it helps to minimise the issues from being inside 24/7. Even prisoners are allowed out for exercise!

messageRe: East Dulwich: new cyclists
Posted by seenbeen April 14, 11:42AM

We've all seen the aerosol pix of people sneezing and how far it travels, and from what I've witnessed none of the coughing,panting, spluttering runners or cyclists put their hands over their mouths. And there are many mentions of instances where social distancing is not adhered to especially by teenagers and builders.
People need to be aware of what is going on around them even if they themselves practice social distancing and all the hygiene because it only takes 1 second for a selfish/ignorant/unwary person to invade your space.

messageRe: East Dulwich: new cyclists
Posted by mako April 14, 12:20PM

Even if we use the 2m figure pretty much every cyclist on the road passes within two meters of pedestrians. Its close to impossible in somewhere like lordship lane between 8am and 7pm to cycle this route and ensure social distancing. Extreme measures in the short term could attempt to stop it being long term. Cyclists at least could do the decency of wearing a face mask and for some reason the wearing of helmets seems to have gone out of fashion.

messageRe: East Dulwich: new cyclists
Posted by Occamsracer April 14, 01:12PM

That's true, this virus can take your head clean off. I saw it on medium. make sure you're wearing your virus helmets people.

messageRe: East Dulwich: new cyclists
Posted by malumbu April 14, 03:25PM

I am still unclear on why this thread attracts those that want to criticise cyclists. Maybe SE22 is a parallel universe but I am going on quiet routes seeing a few walkers, joggers and other cyclists, and the odd speeding car but 99%++ allows me two metres from other humans. I know where the few bottle necks are and wait my turn. Cyclist should adopt the primary position in the road and as we have so few cars breathing down our necks this is easier than usual. This position is well away from the pavement, there is generally no need to weave in-between cars so we don't come close to open windows. At times we stop to allow others clear priority and on the parks/paths I use I have no problems with moving onto the grass to give pedestrians clear distance. Most others out smile, thank you, or interact in other positive ways.

I fear far more the shopping isles, and no matter how well the queues are managed it is almost impossible to keep 2 metres away from others during most shops.But that is a separate discussion.

This outdoor life many of us are enjoying for the 30 mins or so each day should be celebrated.

messageRe: East Dulwich: new cyclists
Posted by mako April 14, 03:37PM

This isnt about you malumbu and whether you are having a fun time.

messageRe: East Dulwich: new cyclists
Posted by Occamsracer April 14, 03:56PM

If you don't think it's possible to ride down Lordship Lane 2m away from people, when Lordship Lane has car parking along great stretches of it, I'm struggling to understand why anyone should take anything you say seriously.

messageRe: East Dulwich: new cyclists
Posted by malumbu April 14, 04:23PM

mako Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This isnt about you malumbu and whether you are
> having a fun time.


What that is me well and truly told. I'll get the t-shirt printed and send a letter to the Times. I did prefer the other slogan though, be nice and don't behave like a twot and we will get through this.

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