malumbu

DC - I try to get a discussion going on the evidence of the impact of pollution and you move the conversation back to the data on traffic levels. Surely there is no more that can be said on this - whatever your perspective. As people have time to crawl through the data I thought that they'd similarly like to go through the evidence on public health impact - I've re-attached the expert committee report from 2018. Too many people are spouting on about toxic air without knowledge of the impacts. https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/734799/COMEAP_NO2_Report.pdf Yes it is harmful, but meeting the legal limits for concentrations of pollution do not make the air 'safe'. There is still harm. Some more interesting views for you. Both the public and motor manufacturers carry significant blame. The public for not demanding cleaner conventional vehicles, the manufacturers for not providing them. So market failure. An example of markets working better is safer cars. Volvo put in additional features decades ago that gave them a market advantage in terms of protecting the occupants. Some (but not all) motorists bought Volvos due to this reason. Other manufacturers aiming at the mature motorist followed suit. Eventually the authorities caught up. But did we go to the dealership and say - how low are your emissions? Do you do a car with lower emissions? Pre ULEZ few were bothered and would have been met with the response - we meet government limits, which aren't well enforced and we know ways of getting round this on the test track (VW blatantly cheated but most/all other manufacturers new tricks to get through the test cycles). Wouldn't it have been nice if one had said - look at our independent testing, we have half the pollution emissions of the other manufacturers. Or even - don't buy that large unnecessary large SUV if all you do is drive around town - buy this small petrol car (petrol Fiat 500/Cinquecento has to be the perfect city car - certainly pre EV (I'd go for the Leaf)). Top Gear did a test on City cars a few years ago and ended the article with a street full of Fiats - for once I agreed with Jezza. There is an independent data base by the way of emissions from various vehicles. Check it out: https://www.emissionsanalytics.com/news/very-cleanest-cars-revealed-new-a-rating-from-the-equa-index Met the chap who is behind this. A final thought, vehicles are getting cleaner. The latest emission standards for diesels are effective. ULEZ is kicking out some of the worst. But ultimately we need interventions to encourage cleaner vehicles and less vehicles on our road. As said without these the public or the car manufacturers will not deliver.

When I came to London I used to go to radio and occasional TV shows - I was introduced to comedians such as Jo Brand and Mark Thomas. Saw the 'Not the Mary Whitehouse Experience' which spawned other careers - Punt and Dennis, and David Baddiel. (Honorable mention to Rob Newman too). Skint Video. Big World Cafe at the Brixton Academy including Papa Wemba. Jonathan Ross show at Ronny Scotts, including Cap't Bob (Robert Maxwell). Fast forward to the digital age and I never got to go to see Nicholas Parsons in Just a Minute (I thought I started a thread about disappointment despite numerous applications). Shortly before Lockdown - Pointless and the Last Leg. Since lockdown being in the virtual audience for the new version of Just a Minute, Mock the Week and HIGNFY. I'm at Riverside to be in the audience next month for the latter. Generally a good night out. The News Quiz went on for too long, and this was taken a step further on Mock the week tonight, self indulgent and tedious. I gave up after two hours. It makes a great 30 minute programme - I had the luxury of a sleep and then baling out doing it on line (this may be the first week of a studio audience - the on line one were pretty superfluous). Pointless and the Now Show are incredibly sharp, running over by a few minutes for a small number of retakes (Armstrong and Osman are so sharp that most of the retakes are done almost in the same sentence - much of the banter seemed ad lib too). HIGNFY runs over too, but more engaging than Mock the Week, and gives them material for their longer version. Anyway I've gone on too long and been rather self indulgent. Good to hear others experiences.

Heartblock - I would welcome your views on this report from 2018 (Department of Health Adviory Committee on medical effects of air pollution). https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/734799/COMEAP_NO2_Report.pdf It is a long and difficult read, and there is much disagreement between the medical experts. I hoped to summarise the main points but this defeated me. The estimate in 2013 was "the mortality burden of long-term exposure to the air pollution mixture in 2013 in the UK was an effect equivalent to 28,000 to 36,000 deaths at typical ages". That is if pollution was reduced to zero there would be tens of thousands less deaths. However deaths are not purely due to pollution but a combination of factors, such as living conditions, diet/obesity, smoking/alcohol, respiratory health and the like. I think that the 23,500 was the government's position a few years ago on nitrogen dioxide exposures. Neither Colbeck or Essex seem to be quoted in the report, but it will represent the views of many academic and medical institutions in the UK. The principle issue appears to be whether pollutants acts individually or collectively. A second point is the impact of ultra fine particulate matter (PM2.5) vs nitrogen dioxide (NO2) including how they impact collectively. NOx is the collective term for nitric oxide and nitrogen dioxide. The former quickly converts to the latter, which is hazardous to human health. Toxic is an emotive word, and suggests that we are all falling down dead like a chlorine or sarin attack. Emissions are measured in terms of NOx whilst ambient concentrations (ie the stuff we breath in) as NO2. Nitrous Oxide (laughing gas) can be apparently quite fun (judging by the metal canisters you see on the street), is not particularly harmful it human health, not produced in great amounts in the internal combustion engine, but a nasty greenhouse gas. NO2 is emitted from various industries, power generation, domestic central heating, as well as road transport - the latter being a particular problem due to proximity to people. But there will still be an element of what we breath in from other sources. We cannot eliminate pollution, but manage it to acceptable levels (as decided by society through our democratic institutions including the EU and UN). Where we hit those acceptable levels there will still be an impact, there isn't a dangerous level of pollution (as often quoted) vs a safe level of pollution. There is a legal vs illegal level, but the legal level will still have an impact. Anyway, do have a read. The chair was Prof Frank Kelly, formerly of Kings College (including running the London Air Quality Network) and he is now at Imperial. The Committee is independent and Prof Kelly and other members have been and will be critical of government policy. [None of this is to say that pollution is harmless, and society shouldn't do something about it, rather that it is bloody complex]

ab29, as you will see not everyone is against LTNs, or at least the concept of traffic restrictions. Please don't make these assumptions in your call to arms. Thanks DC, Dulville and others for the counter arguments. I know that there are pretty firm views but alternative views still need to be shared on a community discussion forum. I've strayed away from personal experience (beyond my own) but comments on Townley did strike an accord. I was cycling there before 9 a few days last week and was pretty gobsmacked at speeding motorists, and the one who overtook on the other side of traffic calming was 'special'. The irony as that we catch cars up like this at the lights and are ahead of them due to the advanced stop lines and advanced cyclist lights. There is a bias of course in my reporting, but this doesn't do any favours for drivers calling for less restrictions. Follow the Highway Code, which includes equal priority for all road users not only cars, and the world would be a better place.

Not sure where you get 'luv' from, unless you are stuck in a 60s timewharp. It's bruv now, bruv. I am Tezza, I am Tezza, no one likes me, I don't care..... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_one_likes_us,_we_don%27t_care Or you can do the Dulwich version (no one knows me, I don't care)

We used to love the Giles family cartoons when we were kids. Our London family were labour supporting working class, so would buy the mirror and Sunday Mirror, but think that the Sunday Express sneaked in from time to time, and they'd get the Giles family annual. I think it appealed to working class conservatives, like the Sun now but far less reactionary jingoistic I expect. Was it just the Mail who were Nazi sympathizers? Beaverbrook was hardly a socialist but pretty important in the war effort and never seen any similar slurs on him.

Instinctively I don't see many drivers would have come into the ULEZ zone then out again on a normal journey before the introduction of the charge, so I expect it is only longer journeys eg out to the M4 or M40 where you previously may have gone through town. There may be some parts of London where you can cut the odd corner off for a local journey which may be now affected. Those that want to avoid the Blackwall Tunnel due to ULEZ will have a very long drive round the 'outer ring road'. Wandsworth one way West has been as bad as it ever was even before ULEZ and I suspect that the roads to the West of this (Putney, Sheen, Mortlake and the like) have become more congested in recent years due to curbing rat running, 24/7 bus lanes and the like. I suspect most paying the charge are very occasional drivers - some 20 year old petrol cars are exempt if a cheap run around is needed. This is purely a comment on the ULEZ so please don't turn it around about the LTN. I used to drive for work a few times a month in the 80s and 90s out to the M4, M40 and M1 and got to know pinch points fairly intimately. It was a blessing then when I had my car nicked so I used the train more, or occasional car hire.

As this thread has gone off on a tangent on population growth, the problem with a low birth rate in developed countries is an aging population. You then need to tap into those countries with a higher birth rate, in order to get workers in care and health to support those older people in need. Brexit closed the gate to those easily coming in from the EU (wow I've got Brexit into the thread too) so we now have to do deals with other nations - Philippines and obvious one, but I expect some countries in South Asia too. Not sure of those newbies are likely to be big on fireworks though. Interesting discussion, probably best place in the Lounge, although it would die and early death there....

Some rather closed minds, a shame.

Hats off Dulville for your articulate post. Why cannot others agree in principle in this even if you disagree with the approach to closing roads. As Greta says there is a lot of blah blah blah from both politicians, but also the masses about climate change. Not suggesting that this thread is full of blah blah blah of course..... " Ultimately I see the LTN's* as part of a raft of measures that, if as a community we are serious about climate change, are coming down the track to change our relationship with the motorcar. When people drive less, it will follow there will be less traffic on any road. I can imagine for many people growing up in a generation where the private car was a powerful means of freedom and independence, and indeed a symbol of success, learning to adapt to measures that prevent them driving at will is going to be hard. But the world is changing fast." * insert a less emotive term such as 'local restrictions' - which we have had imposed on us certainly since I have lived in London (edited for typos)

Just an unwise term, the rest of the article is more sensible, as are most I have met in Southwark Cyclists when ?I have gone on their rides. I want less cars our street but have grown up in the way I present my arguments. I can still slip into 'entitled motorists' from time to time including the two that just had to overtake me this morning, on traffic calmed roads and I caught up and overtook shortly afterwards. So on the issue of entitlement, speed limiters have been around for yonks but any imposition will lead to a revolt. Blackbox is a good example, new drivers just want to get rid ASAP, and there are only a few policies aimed at more experienced drivers: "sensible driver? install our black box and reduce your premium". Vehicles have been fitted with 'telematics' for yonks where information on use can be downloaded/shared principally for servicing and maintenance. Fiat have a scheme that rewards owners of Fiat 500s for good driving, and their are devices you can buy which can allow you to compete for fuel efficient driving with others. https://www.expressandstar.com/news/motors/2021/03/16/new-fiat-500-owners-to-be-rewarded-for-eco-driving-with-cryptocurrency/ Back to blackboxes I saw a rear window sticker which said something like: Blackbox fitted - I'm just as peed off as you. I wanted to scrawl "blackbox fitted, responsible driver" And this is from someone who at the age of 18 the day after passing their test drove with their mother and aunt up the motorway for the first time to see how fast they could get their old car going. Fortunately the speed limiter was the car itself (max about 75mph) but that wasn't sensible. Less enlightened times.... This lot feel that there should be no restrictions on drivers. Reminds me of what I have heard and read on the introduction of the breatheliser - well of course I drive more carefully when I have had a skinful.... https://www.freedomfordrivers.org/ (edited to add links)

Interesting reversal of headlines today - Mail "yippee we've defeated Covid" and the Express "Tory voters losing trust in the PM" - maybe the two editors got together and swapped stories. [i've never bought either but have vague memories that the Express as a broadsheet was once a serious newspaper]

Northern, DKH, this thread is becoming the voice of reason. Perhaps it will grow to the same size as the LTN one.

Class Tezza, sheer class. A curse of non-trivial crimes against you and your kin.

My word, the facetious and ignorant (unaware not low IQ) comments shows why we are going to hell in a handcart. Well I suppose whilst the world burns this and previous generations who did little to stop things worsening, and only took this seriously when it will be too late, will be with Satan having a similar experience. That's not to say that the Prime Minister both plays gesture politics and looks for every opportunity for publicity (or a load of hot air as others have coined it...)

Tessa Jowell doing walk ins, but don't go there if you haven't reached your 6 months and a week, although I went next door and had my first ever flu jab.... It was 12 for walk ins on the day I tried with about a 20 minute wait.

I quite liked it when somebody challenged those with opposing views to come up with the opposite argument (was that you Heartblock?) - I was happy to join in but others didn't which is a shame. ed_pete Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > After 260 pages and 7700+ posts isn't it time the > two sides met a pub one evening and let this > thread die gracefully ?

Dimelda, be serious please. Nobody will ever impose 10mph speed limits on public roads. And no point in picking arguments with me as I fully support more appropriate speeds in urban areas and simply wish that the authorities would get drivers to follow these. mrwb - there has been a camera there for yonks. tomskip - surprised that you weren't offered a speed awareness course, although 25mph isn't a frighteningly fast speed.

20mph an hour isn't a joke, it's sensible and should be enforced. Forget spot speed cameras and go for average speed cameras. Tech is there but governments do not want to offend the powerful motorists lobby. The one big issue I have with many types of traffic enforcement is that it demonises the responsible driver whilst the asshols get away with it. I'm not talking LTNs here, that's for another thread. I had my fair share of points in my yuff, some deservedly, some were trivial. I've also been let off, and at times before digital got away with it (when the camera roll had run out). I've been flashed by cameras a few times in France, which have little tolerance, are well marked, and guess what, the traffic runs smoothly close to the speed limit. You put your sat nav on and relax - helped too by quieter roads. Got caught in Austria ten years ago, and whilst it was two in the morning on winding Alpine Roads, should have been more careful. The Tyrol authorities were a pleasure to deal with, the fine was a big slap on my wrists without being disproportionate, no points and no increase in insurance. Many years ago I got caught doing a modest speed by a speed trap, I ranted at an Uncle and he replied "how much time did I save, and was it worth it". Years later I realised he was right. Living the dream as a green warrior on my pushbike I occasionally do a slow down motion with my hands to speeding drivers. Sometimes abuse is shouted by them. I've lobbied MPs for average speed cameras such as on Brenchley Gardens, but got no where. Need a culture change so that motorists are not entitled to drive what they want, how they want, where they want, when they want etc etc. Funnily enough I quite like the classic car programmes on the box, car SOS, Bangers and Cash and the like. Oh and the rrrs who overtook me and other cyclist including young families on Townley on Monday morning on the wrong side of the traffic calming.... Back to my uncle, how much time did you save. O8 blue Zafira by the way. Looking back on my teenage self and in my 20s if I wanted to have the excitement of speed just go down to the local go cart track or watch some live speedway.

"but the only thing that will get people out of their cars is when road pricing comes in - everything else is just window-dressing." I keep thinking that there is little point in posting but Rocks you then provide me with more ammunition. What a bizarre sweeping statement. I've certainly stopped driving and I can't be the only one over the years due to numerous hard interventions: - Restrictions on the rat runs that only I and the cabbies knew - Congestion charging, particularly now it is 24/7 (that goes well beyond road user charging) - Increased and often 24 hour bus lanes - More parking restrictions, and more expensive parking And on the odd time that I have tried to use the South Circ outside late eve through to early morning in recent years, that is enough to put anyone off driving and it is worse than I experienced when I first came to London. Not sure why you are so blinkered in some aspects of your thinking. You know more about traffic counts than any normal person and by all means talk about that level of detail with others. Not me. But do cut out the knee jerk stuff. The Hammersmith example is yet another gem. Who on earth, unless your journey is absolutely essential, wants to get stuck crawling around Clapham Common, Earls Court and the A4 in rush hour. Even changing tube in central London cannot be that masochistic. And the air quality is particularly awful in the latter two, and has been so for donkeys years. Heartblock, on a lighter note hadn't realised I had assigned a gender to you, always try to be gender neutral, and similarly keep myself gender fluid.

Really surprised that Legal and P3 didn't just do a Google search, plenty out there to show that they are legit, not a bunch of cranks, not scammers, and certainly not directly associated with the LTNs. The Community Energy Scheme is interested and their are others doing similar across the country. I welcome those actually making a difference!

Villa lucky not to get two players sent off defending one attack - ref soft on them, wonder if this has happened in such quick succession. Not a fan of their manager.

Depends what you think the level of coverage needs to be and how this works for and against taking action on climate change. Yes it's a chance for good publicity and hell our PM likes the limelight. Also the TV coverage can raise the profile. But hell nobody wanted to discuss the UK's zero carbon plans when I posted here and it dropped out of the media in only a day or so.

No not really, not getting into this game. You well know that I believe that we need hard measures, others are better placed to work out what is best. They've been restricting access to many roads ever since I've lived in London, and it has affected my behaviour as it will others. And on Climate Change, just putting the blame on corporations wont sort stuff out, personal responsibility just as important. Although agree with the sentiments about the PM. Hope all active on this site sign the petition - see the thread /forum/read.php?5,2242072

Nice one, although perhaps refer to him just as the PM rather than his given or full name. Well worded and hope that others on this site will sign. Copied below for info INTERNATIONAL 1. Honouring the Paris Agreement Goals to limit warming to 1.5 degrees C through increased commitments and with immediately actionable policies. 2. Securing a renewed agreement to honour previous commitments to provide poorer countries with ?100 Billion every year from 2020, backdating the funding which has not been paid to date. 3. Acting on the latest IPCC report and immediately withdrawing the funding for all new fossil fuel based infrastructure in the UK and around the world. 4. Working with the international community to halt and rapidly reverse the decline of biodiversity and nature around the world to maintain and enhance our land and ocean carbon sinks immediately. NATIONAL 5. Adopting the UN 17 Sustainable Development Goals for a fairer society by 2023 and ensuring that the formal measurement of the UK?s economic health takes into account impact on the climate and on wellbeing alongside GDP. 6. Establishing an urgent, detailed action plan to ensure that the UK meets the 4th, 5th and 6th carbon budgets. 7. Commit to fund low cost, low carbon transport across all areas of the UK. 8. Urgently establish an effective, long term funding programme for whole house retrofitting allowing it to be taken up at scale across the country, by councils, housing associations and individuals immediately. 9. Ensure that all young people receive a robust climate education and leave school equipped for zero carbon jobs and lifestyles. 10. Support all schools to retrofit their buildings and ensure that all new school buildings are zero carbon from 2022.