malumbu

Interesting what short memories we have. The Beeb referred to the last fuel crisis being in 2000. Labour has similarly forgotten that there were three further short term ones in the 00s, probably better handled that this one. 2005 was due to the resumption of fuel protests, far better managed by the authorities than in 2000. https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2005/sep/13/politics.oil Later under Brown there was again threats of fuel protests (funny how it doesn't happen under a Tory government) https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/drivers-panic-fuels-shortages-petrol-pumps-5347824.html And in between we had a refinery fire, whilst another refinery was undergoing annual maintenance, which again caused a brief blip. Sadly can't find links to that one. The obvious difference was that many could still remember 2000 and the disruption seen then, and in handling this it was trade and consumer organisations that fronted the media campaign not the PM as is now. Blair would of course not have been seen as a good spokesperson, but give him credit for how he spoke following 7/7 (ignoring his role in increased security risk to the UK from Islamic fundamentalists).

I've got five litres of petrol contaminated with diesel. I wont even use it for a mower (which in any case needs decent fuel) so use it occasionally to get a bonfire going, not that I do many of those nowadays. I'm tempted to put it on the items to buy section. Funny business this, in one way a useful community service, on the other hand can encourage unnecessary purchases.

The streetscape on the closed bit needs to be improved, properly precincted, with nicer laid out road/pavement combo (with or without buses). If done properly there could be better sharing of the road between bikes and people. The North section was so nice when they did it, but too narrow in the central lane, and you will see that buses have been long since mounting the curb and damaging that and the pavement. I tried taking this up with both Southwark and TfL a number of years ago, but got nowhere, dreadfully unjoined up (and this is from the person who generally tries to defend both bodies)

Might be useful to post a general chat on the local part of this forum, rather than hiding this with a survey which could be for any purpose - eg a student's project. I expect that there would be a lot of interest, certainly from those of us who lived or worked near Kennington, Stockwell as the like.

Interesting that there is reference to Brighton. The local authority is very interventionist and is considering banning cars. I expect that there is a similar forum down South with many angry about anti-car measures. Anyway, interesting reading: https://www.theargus.co.uk/news/19027419.car-free-brighton-plans-liveable-city-centre/

There may be a cultural thing too. Mates from the Southern Hemisphere were encouraged to do vocational work, which would help them travel the globe. Perhaps in Polish schools there is a push to get people into the manual trades. I expect many in this country don't want to get their hands dirty. It's not just the lower end as Eastern Europeans are often managers/skilled technicians eg in food and agriculture. Moving from manufacturing to a service economy will have very much influenced recent generations including the expectation that most will go on to higher education (not necessarily a bad thing).

Spartacus, you've been so lucky, lucky lucky lucky.....

Shame I didn't know about this as I would have come down, although I am not part of all these dark networks Rocks and others talk about. Old Labour Old Danger..... Sorry I couldn't resist (Why has this thread been hidden on the lounge?)

The vulnerability comment was purely because of different physical strengths which of course is a sweeping statement. I want a world where men wouldn't seek to exploit this, and I think society has come a long way in recent decades - particularly as women's roles/expectations have changed, greater equality etc etc. I'm moving off topic but remember Andy Capp in the Daily Mirror when the used to have a regular scrap with Flo and such humour was seen to be totally acceptable(to be fair she gave as good as she took, so it wasn't encouraging wife beating).

It's a valid question so not sure why so many are up in arms. Young men are far more likely to be the victims of violent crime. I expect that it is the vulnerability of women, the randomness of the murders and the nature of these that has led to an outcry. I'd penned a longer response including two innocent men killed recently, and referring back to Stephen Lawrence (still shocked by the cover up and incompetence of the police) but it seemed rather macabre and took me to a section in the Daily Mirror on line which made me think of the Victorian's obsession with murders.

In deed, I expect that Southwark has hired some heavies to cause mayhem at filling stations.

Sounds great, lovely weather too, nice to see some positivity.

I occasionally cycle down Tooley Street and used to drink down there before it got redeveloped. Hadn't clocked any of it was closed, last time I drove (and maybe the only time) was to pick up a telly from Richer Sounds three years ago

The last panic was in the late 00s following a refinery fire - I expect that another refinery was down due to annual maintenance. Prices went up due to the shortage, but people still rushed to the filling stations. Prices came down a week or two later, after demand had subsided and refinery capacity restored. Not sure how much of a price hike you need to quell short term demand.

Yes I remember video phones on Tomorrow's World, of course like small hand held computers linking you to the world and with levels of information at our finger tips unimaginable 30 years ago that was never going to happen....

Some parts of the Thames path are narrow, but most bikes and pedestrians seem to manage. If you are on thin tyres the cobbles around the Cutty Sark pub can act like tram tracks, beware! The Anchor and Hope pub is a nice stop near Charlton as it is the only riverside pub that I know that has not been tarted up/gastro'd/over priced. It's Greene King though which is a shame. Thinking of East Dulwich you can miss some of the worst traffic out going via the Rye, over the pedestrian bridge to Crofton Park then down to Ladywell where you can get on the Waterlink Way. You can also combine a hills of Lewisham ride - One Tree Hill, Blythe Hill, Telegraph Hill, and possibly Horniman Hill. Although this can involve the race track aka Brenchley Gardens. Southwark Cyclists (that anarchy group trying to bring down the state - my joke) do some nice gentle rides. I'd recommend Penge Cyclists rather than Dulwich Paragon if you want some more testing social rides but at a reasonably relaxed speed. Southwark Cyclists usually post on the Whats On section of this site.

Not that I am an economist but I know something about this. Increasing costs of private car use does not necessarily equate with reduced use - so increased fuel price at a time of shortage may not quell panic buying. Here's some of the evidence but not an easy read, and I could not cut and paste some succinct findings from it - be my guest! https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/395119/road-traffic-demand-elasticities.pdf If you restict purchases by amount, the time factor does come into it, as those who are most desperate (for real or perceived reasons) will go round the block and queue again. This would only be introduced I expect, in a proper time of crisis due to severe loss of production/refining, or say a tanker driver strike. I doubt whether fuel rationing, as in the last war, or thought about in the early 70s, is a liklihood. On deliveries, as smiley untrustable man (SUM) said this morning on the Jonny Marry programme, there is not a large shortage of tanker drivers. It is relatively well paid job, particularly compared to other hauliers. SUM seemed to say that other hauliers salaries would increase, which appears to be rather interventionist from a Tory government, and of course that will add to the costs of our food and other products. A Brexit benefit (sorry couldn't help myself). The beer analogy is a good one. In New Zealand when they only served beer after work for an hour, drunkenness and domestic violence rocketed. Beer was being served in a high pressure hose the demand from drinkers being so high. In Scotland that is why they liberalised licensing laws long before England.

How do you share pollution out? Irrespective of the LTNs the main trunk roads have always been the most polluted. They are the roads that are designed to carry more traffic. Those with more money will almost always chose to live in quieter roads. If you want to take traffic off the pinch points such as say Catford Bridge or the Brixton Road then you'd have to widen many local roads. You'd need a great fire of London or a Blitz to redesign the road network. It doesn't make it right that those most vulnerable are more likely to live in inadequate housing, suffer social and health problems and have the highest levels of pollution. But I struggle to see what your solution is in sharing pollution out equally. Unless you are talking about restricting road traffic, which would very much support.

White flag here, I was using humour, to say that we should not be demonising people for queuing for fuel. If you are desperate you will join the queue, irrespective of the implications (were people getting fines for queuing on the bus lane yesterday on the South Circ yeseterday?). How essential your purchase is, is highly subjective. It is a natural instinct to hoard for you and your family in times of shortage. How many people rushed to buy toilet rolls during lock down 1 when they heard they were available through social media/WhatApp? Whether they had a good supply or not. In the 80s if you were queuing for bread in a Moscow shop would you say I'll just have one loaf and hope they have some tomorrow or would you buy a whole freezer's worth? This situation is highly frustrating to those that have to use their vehicle and totally avoidable. This is a blip, we've seen it before, it will sort itself out shortly. Supply chains operate on 'just in time' and don't want loads of stock in storage at a retail site. Market forces mean that the number of filling stations has declined by about 60% in the last 30 years, exacerbating this blip. But it's fine for me to sit back and not rush out, as I don't need fuel and can easily ride it out. Many are not in that fortunate position. Anyway, DKH, there was a centre forward in the 60s who said to the ref at half time, what would you do if I called you a barstool. The ref replied, well I'd send you off Mr Centre Forward. OK says the footballer, what would happen if I think you are a barstool? Well Mr Centre Forward, you can think whatever you want. Thank you referee, I think you are a barstool.

Trouble is you label people who are rushing to the pumps as idiots, yet this is a sizable part of the population. I could label those of you who voted to leave the EU as idiots, but I don't. By all means share your views but what benefit does is it to use emotive terms such as idiots? You silly Billy's. I'd be really interested in how you discourage such 'idiotic' behaviour. When for a sizeable many panic buying is a totally rational thing to do, I'm alright Jack.

I don't know why you idiots on this site continue to use the term idiots about people you don't agree with. Similarly some of the idiots on my WhatsApp group also resort to calling others idiots. I'm stressing the point. Some of the idiots who are blocking our roads actually have a genuine and urgent need for fuel and may be following their normal purchasing patterns. Others, who aren't idiots can be smug and simply wait until the situation sorts itself out. The other group of idiots are those that don't need to rush out, and are causing the short term shortage (which we have seen before). So you get one group of idiots who genuinely need fuel, but the other sort of idiots who are better described as selfish or simply unaware, who are making it difficult for the first group of idiots, exacerbating the problem, made worse by the idiots in the media. And then the smug people like me can just write about it. Finally there are the idiots in government, and whatever idiot they use be it government, industry, consumer organisations, Floella Benjamin; however measured the message is the selfish idiots will rush out and panic buy. I think the lesson here is please don't rush to label people idiots. Rational debate please or alternatively a bit of humour.

Rocks, I expect most cyclists are either functional and/or leisure cyclists. I don't recognise many you accuse of being fanatics. Irrelevant to the LTN, and one more road journey by bike = one less car journey which surely you must be in favour of. Come to one of the Southwark LCC social rides on a Saturday morning, perhaps your views may change. Deliveries, big Lounge type conversation there. As much to do with the mentality of I must have it now, as well as the try it and return. Roll on Cop 26.

I do trust Tooley Street. It's always there when I need to use it. In fact that can be said about most roads in the UK, we haven't lost many down sink holes or through earth quakes and even during the blitz they still managed to operate. Occasionally the names change which can be confusing but I don't think that there are any plans to change the name of Tooley Street.

Bizarre thing to say. Higgs Bosun anyone? Human Genome? Developing, approving and manufacturing vaccines within 18 months? Greater success in cancer treatment. Growing human tissue and organs?? Not sure where your idea of a fridge sized nuclear power station came from but the cores in nuclear subs are not so far off in size and small modular reactors will be a thing in the future.

DC - that's capitalism for you, we are being sold a dream/lifestyle (and that covers much of what we buy). But there again would be like to live in North Korea (I'm being only slightly facetious). Rocks, you talk about cycling yourself but then seem to have joy over what you see as cycling failing to increase, in your defence you are not as bad as some other posters on this thread. Shame that there is this antipathy irrespective of our views on LTNs EVs, fascinating lounge type conversations. I've driven many on test tracks, and even a hydrogen fuel cell. But I expect I wont own one, but use car clubs when needed in future. Filling the roads up with them rather than ICEs is not the answer, rather a least worst option. Reducing the need and using more effectively including occupancy. How on earth you increase occupancy without a single party state (back to North Korea again) I don't know. Protests - there is lots of talk about improved public transport but the 2000 fuel protests have caused so much harm. We had a government before that who were genuinely pro public transport and reducing private car use. Since then successive governments have been too afraid to take on the motorist lobby apart from the current half assesed attempt that they have dumped onto local authorities. Cost of public transport - full life costs are about 45p a mile, a return journey to Cumbria would therefore be around ?260 in costs to drive. So a single person in simple transport costs would be about the same price. Take into account reduced stress and the possibility for some economic activity when you are on the train - say 3 hours at ?50 it becomes even more attractive to use the train. But the full single fares are too much, and pre-Covid franchise owners were essentially printing money hence Branson going full on to overturn the loss of the West Coast franchise in 2012. Privatisation did bring in the benefits of cheap travel with advanced purchases but we don't always have the luxury of that. I used to check out alternatives eg train to Lancaster or Penrith and hire a car from there, or worse still doing it in a day, early flight to Newcastle with Easyjet (aghhhh emissions) and again hire car. But another lounge discussion. Finally I've spoken before about the end of private car ownership, as we transition to connected and autonomous vehicles, and, especially in the capital, an autonomous pod will be summoned to our residence, probably sharing with others, to a transport node, when we will get on our electric bus, or electric scooter, or hover board, or whatever, to go onto our destination. All at speed and without hassle.