LadyDeliah

Don't have time to read all of this (too much work to get through), but just wanted to add something incase it hadn't been mentioned. Most teenagers I've ever known want to grow up really quickly so having an older boyfriend or girlfriend can give the teenager access to the exciting world of grown-ups. When I was at school, the boys were discouraged from having girlfriends older than them, not sure why, and I remember girls being slagged off for going out with a boy even 1 year younger than them. So in my experience, I would submit that boys were probably less able to access this glittering adult world until they started getting hairy chins and deep voices, but the girls I know used to brag about their older boyfriends from the age of 13 or so, because it made them feel that they were more grown-up than their peers. This wish to appear more grown up than ones peers is not merely a phenomenon found in teenage girls, the boys used to do all kinds of strange things such as leaving their tufty bum fluff to grow and not washing to show they were old enough to have BO! The attraction of the exclusive, exciting adult world to teenagers is probably always going to be there, but at least now, society has recognised that just because someone very young looks like an adult and tries to act like one, it doesn't mean that they are one. I think this applies to boys as well as girls, but it would appear that predatory peadophiles are more likely to be hetrosexual men and there are less older women who would entertain very young guys, so it is probably more relevant to teenage girls. It is still the duty of adults to not take advantage of the natural curiosity and budding sexual feelings of young teenagers, because to do so when the power relationship is so one-sided can cause loss of self-esteem along with emotional and sexual problems for the teenager when they reach adulthood themselves.

Another thing I think you might want to consider is getting some kind of treatment from the doctor. Having a long journey to take that seems hard or even impossible can be made easier if you get help for any underlying depression. Anti-depressants can stop the cycle of worry/stress/frozen inactivity and help you get started on the things you need to do to get where you want to be. They are a very good way of giving you short term relief which helps unfreeze your brain and allows you to see solutions where you may only see problems now. In your situation I would definitely get a housemate or lodger. You can earn over ?4,000 a year tax free by renting out rooms in your house. I would put up with temporary overcrowding if I had to, just to ease the pressure. I think space has become a luxury in London and most people I know are unable to pay for their housing costs alone. When you have eased the short term problems and managed to get yourself onto some kind of stable path, you might want to look at what you are doing for work. If you have three jobs, I would imagine you could benefit from some form of skilling up or change in your skills. If the value per hour of your work is very low, it makes moving forward in your life very difficult. Most people barely manage to keep afloat on minimum wage levels. That could be something you address in the future after your immediate issues have been stabilised. First step though, as said above, is get to your gp and ask for help. Good luck xx

I have been broke bringing up my kids for over a decade, but I learned to survive quite well with very little money. I cycle everywhere to save money and keep myself fit, I buy almost all of my clothes from charity shops, including suits that look as good as anyone else's I meet professionally. I don't let myself get caught up in the consumer tidal wave that sometimes seems to overwhelm our society and get many things I need from nice people on Freecycle (I also put any stuff on there I don't need any more too). When it comes to the bills, I turn lights off when I leave a room. I put an extra jumper or quilt on if it's cold. If I do need the heating we have a one hour switch which we put on and the massive amount of insulation in my loft keeps the place warm for hours after the one hour runs out. I also have a housemate who lives in my front room to help share household costs so my bedroom is a bit like a student bedsit! I also grow some fruit and veg plus keep my own chickens for their eggs - in a small terrace garden. I have managed to save up money to start my own business and after only taking ?500 per month out of my business to live on since I started a year and a half ago, I am proud to say that my business is growing steadily in the middle of the worst recession since the great depression and I am still poor, but happy. Sometimes when things get to breaking point, we need to rethink how we do things. Many people may have to do that in the face of rising costs of living and falling or stagnant wages. Things that seemed important previously, will seem frivolous when money gets tight and we adjust our priorities.

Add accent and expected codes of behaviour, DaveR and I reckon you've nailed it.

I agree the past and present attempts to rigidly define what the various perceived classes might be, is flawed, but it is clear that there is a definite hierarchy and your chances in life/access to power over your own life etc are very much dependant on where you are in that hierarchy. There also seem to be distinct rules and codes of behaviour attached to your position in the hierarchy, which can act as a way to exclude people who are not like you, unless like me, you don't give a toss and just do what you want anyway :-)

Ruling class and ruled class is probably more accurate, although the ruled can be sub-divided into among others, professional, semi-skilled, skilled and unemployed classes. Marx defined the working class as those who don't own their means of production and sell their labour to those who own the means of production, while EP Thompson defined the class system more in terms of a persons relationship with power. It looks like Cameron wants to take us back to the good old days of feudal landlords and serfs, thereby doing away with the working class altogether!

That's pretty disgusting. Why don't they demand a slice of single parents' benefits while they are at it, after all their taxes pay for it! I am totally gobsmacked that these women can't see why underprivileged kids should be prioritised and why nannies trained in child care don't need the services as much as some poor girl bringing up a baby on her own. Shame on you selfish, self-absorbed and greedy women.

I hate all the slang that my kids speak around me, especially when they were teenagers. I pick up language around me like osmosis and seem completely unable to stop it. I spent a month in Jamaica and came back with a strange Jamaican mix to my accent, so having my kids constantly speaking slang around me has completely ballsed up my vocabulary!

And people who make massively sweeping generalisations are unimaginative morons.

Constant redial!

That's your interpretation of what I've written Hugo, but not actually what I have said. I pointed out that the OP was unlikely to have intended to include Trust managers in his definition of health professionals and to include them would distort the point he was trying to make. Simples.

Maybe you should contact the local papers and start a campaign to embarrass someone into doing something about it.

I think lumping Trust managers in with doctors, nurses etc as being health professionals in your analysis Burbage, misses the point.

Lol, I think that would be nice. I didn't really want reveal so much about my sordid past, but it seems I had little choice with all the conjecture and insults flying around.

Jeremy Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > But the really worrying stuff in this thread is > the implication that Afghans are violent, racist > people who go around beating the crap out of > innocent black teenagers for the hell of it. > People should be pulling LadyD up on this gross > generalisation. I dated one of the Afghan shopkeepers for about a year last year and was with him on the day the big fight actually happened. My comments on the Afghan shopkeepers involved in the issues with the black youths have been limited to the people I actually know first hand and are based on the comments and attitudes I witnessed at that time. I have not made any general or sweeping comments about Afghans other than to say that they have grown up in a country which has been at war for the past 100 years, which is just stating a fact. I am entitled to assume that has an impact on their handling of confrontation, especially given the shopkeepers involved have told me themselves that they consider themselves to be different from most Asians, in that they would never back down from a confrontation. I have also stated that I think this is an admirable trait and totally understandable. I have also stated that I have heard first hand racist comments about their black customers from some of the shopkeepers involved. I used to sit in his shop with him and he offered a job to my daughter. I spent time and ate with him and many of the other shop-keepers. I have had arguments with them about this when I was dating the Afghan shopkeeper, but despite him having been in the UK for over 10 years, liking my mixed race daughters and listening to bashment and hip-hop music, his negative views on black people had not changed since his arrival. While I was relatively supportive of their stand against the Peckham gang last year (and I was there when some of them were questioned by the police), I believe that their negative view of black people and the very light touch of the police last year, has allowed what may have been a turning point in the hold of the gang in Peckham Rye, become an impression that are entitled to abuse young black men as a whole. If anyone has any closer contact with any of the protagonists in this mess than me, I'd be pleased to hear from them. If not then I suggest you stop making assumptions about something you have little insight into. I am attempting to outline the issues as I see them from my first hand experience. I have tried my best to bring a bit of clarity to this as many of you seem to be totally confused as to what has been going on because your contact with either of the 'sides' in this is limited and I do not think this taking of sides by people with little understanding is useful. The polarisation this causes can't do anything but inflame things further. I think the only solution would be for calm examination of the facts and if it is found that the shopkeepers have been taking the law into their own hands, especially if based on racist profiling, that the community and the police let the shopkeepers know that they need to obey the law like everyone else, before the situation escalates.

Ok, black youths as a generic group. Is that better?

I just want to say that when I was talking to some of the protesters, who were mainly middle aged women as Bellenden Belle has stated, I didn't hear or see any of the racist placards or shouts mentioned above. I'd be interested to see some evidence of that. The pecking order of immigrants mentioned above is exactly what I think is happening in Peckham Rye, plus the fact (from one of the shopkeepers own account) that people who used to give other Asian shopkeepers trouble didn't understand that they are Afghan and always fight back. That is fair enough, I would never advocate taking crap from anyone, but it is my understanding that after the big battle last year between the Afghan shopkeepers and the Peckham Youths gang, the Peckham Rye shopkeepers have taken the tacit approval of the police as permission to continue to inflict violence on black youths as a whole, which is out of order and needs to be stopped.

I'm not sure that allowing the Afghans to continue to police Rye Lane based on their idea of racial profiling is particularly helpful.

KK, it seems to me that you may be playing to your own prejudices by dismissing the comments on and observations of the behaviour of the Afghan shopkeepers in this instance as being justified, because the victims(young black men) must have somehow asked for it. I know some of the Afghan shopkeepers in Peckham Rye quite well and despite them being nice to me, can confirm that I have heard them saying very rascist things about their black customers. You also need to remember a number of them grew up in an active warzone and have a harsher view on how to deal with disputes. I have mixed race daughters and one of the shopkeepers in particular whose family I know quite well, offered my daughter a job. When I pointed out that this ran contrary to his previously espoused rascist views, he said it was because he didn't see her as 'black'. I think failing to recognise the racism of the Afghan shopkeepers will not help anyone and is likely to just exacerbate what looks to be a growing issue. In my view they need to be told that their behaviour is unacceptable because the police were pretty pleased that they beat up the Peckham gang last year and appear to be giving them too wide a margin now. It needs to be brought back under control before someone is killed and we have race riots in Peckham.

I'm just saying what one of the organisers of the protest said to me. They seemed like pretty decent people, so I don't imagine they'd be protesting if it was some thug who'd been beaten up. I know some of the shopkeepers there and they had a big battle with the Peckham youths last year, putting two in hospital. It seems to me that they have possibly taken the view that as the police were 'on their side' on that occasion, they have been given carte blanche in their dealings with young black men. In relation to returning goods, I was told they tried to return faulty mobile phones and were attacked.

Apparently a group of the Afghan shop keepers beat a young black guy with sticks, according to one of the organisers. They have apparently attacked a few black guys who have complained and tried to return goods.

Sorry Tom, I think you missed the boat with British circuses. They cleaned up their act a couple of decades ago. Nothing to complain about with Zippos in my opinion. I think you picked your fight badly in this instance.

My chickens are helping me clear all the slugs in my front garden. They are great slug and garden clearers!

So are you going to protest outside Dulwich Riding School? The Zippo horses are well exercised and look to be in fantastic health, unlike horses at other establishments.

We were on Peckham Rye from 7:30pm for an hour this evening and it was pretty normal looking. Or where you referring to 7:30 this morning?