????

green

I have never voted anything other than Labour (or not voted last time) in a general election (my first was in '83) but am seriously thinking about voting conservative, with many reservations, and certainly anything (other than BNP) to get Labour out

Barry Road Racers There are too many of them on the road and they present a clear hazard for all road users. Many are simply not qualified to be on busy roads and can behave dangerously, mounting pavements, jumping red lights and weaving dangerously in and out of traffic. They are also inconsiderate. Rarely will an arsehole ever give way. Try pulling out of a junction onto a main road in rush hour. Just when there is a break in traffic and an opportunity to pull out a huge peloton (not pelathon) of arseholes appears, none of them prepared to allow you to merge into the traffic.......Maybe they could be considered for torture as well.

KidKruger Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > This gentleman was bored with the subject of > threads on EDF and decided to take matters into > his own hands. > A defining feature of the ED type these days. indeed people are startibg to do things to get a mention. i even saw someone buying the Telegraph this morning

they were a bit lairy ;-)

Er, aren't we now debating something different? Punishment is one thing but everyone and I mean EVERYONE has a right to a presumption of innocent until proved guilty and fair trail with legally gained evidence...torture doesn't fit in any of this EVER. Now punishment that's a whole different argument

cheers all - Man U, Celtic & Liverpool all very well behaved

where's the lynch mob? There's a dodgy bloke outside Budgens thst needs sorting, i don't like the look of him at all

Sean's drifted out to 20/1 - inside information

Pitchforks and torches...we know it makes sense

Hugenot? We've enough for a series

Ted Max Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > David Steel, Quids. Former leader of the Liberal > party? One of the SDP founders? > > "go back to your constituencies and prepare for > government." > > No? I thought that was Snorky?

oh gawd, I thought you weren't about....:-S

Never heard of him? is he calm, considered and reasonable?

See

Keef, you're too nice.....I think we need a bit 'more steel'....I nominate Moos

Oh come on people, if it's a wind up fair does but torture? I'm squarely with Sean on this and that's nothing to do with liberalism just having some sort of workable legal system operating er.....legally

between consenting adults with passwords?

I'm gonna sit on the railings on this one

I, like Sean, am a bus fan....but i get the feeling a P13 is a bus you don't want to be seen on...er, never neen on it myself

I was chuckling thinking now whose gonna be first on this thread?

Eliot or Bronte?

I think the latter is more you BBW

david_carnell Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > This is a bitter pill to swallow, but I think I > know, partially, what Tony is getting at and to > some extent I have sympathy with his position or > the position of those he refers to. Let me > explain. > > There is, I believe, very large segments of people > within our society who sense that they are > threatened by massive immigration and by the > growing minorities within their borders that hail > from different cultures, follow different > practices, and have separate institutions and > loyalties. > > But street violence, verbal outbursts of hate, and > growing support for various extremist parties are > unwholesome reactions. People feel threatened that > their sense of identity, self-determination, and > culture, which come on top of concerns evoked by > globalization, new communications technologies, > and a gradual loss of national sovereignty are > being eroded. To throw the feelings of many > millions of people in their faces, calling them > ?discriminatory,? ?exclusionary,? ?hypocritical,? > and worse, is an easy politics, but is not truly > committed to resolving the problem. People?s > anxieties and concerns should not be dismissed out > of hand, nor can they be effectively treated by > labelling them racist or xenophobic. Furthermore, > telling people that they ?need? immigrants because > of economic reasons or demographic shortfalls > makes a valid and useful argument, but does not > address their profoundest misgivings. > > The challenge is to find ways to constructively > address these concerns. At the same time, we > should ensure that these sentiments do not find > antisocial, hateful, let alone violent > expressions. > > Two approaches are to be avoided: promoting > assimilation and unbounded multiculturalism. > Assimilation ? which entails requiring minorities > to abandon all of their distinct institutions, > cultures, values, habits, and connections to other > societies in order to fully mesh into the > prevailing culture (see France to an extent) ? is > sociologically difficult to achieve. It is morally > unjustified because of our respect for some > normative differences, such as to which gods we > pray. > > Unbounded multiculturalism ? which entails giving > up the concept of shared values, loyalties, and > identity in order to privilege ethnic and > religious differences, presuming that nations can > be replaced by a large number of diverse > minorities ? is also unwelcome. It is likely to > evoke undemocratic backlashes, ranging from > support for extremist, rightwing > parties and populist leaders (see the furore > surrounding the BNP) to anti-minority policies. It > is unjustified because it fails to recognize the > values and institutions held dear by the society > at large, such as those that protect women?s and > gay rights. > > The basic approach I favour is Diversity Within > Unity (from which I have plagiarised this post). > It presumes that all members of a given society > will fully respect and adhere to those basic > values and institutions that are considered part > of the basic shared framework of the society. At > the same time, every group in society is free to > maintain its distinct subculture ? those policies, > habits, and institutions that do not conflict with > the shared core ? and a strong measure of loyalty > to its country of origin, as long as this does not > trump loyalty to the society in which it lives if > these loyalties come into conflict. Respect for > the whole and respect for all is at the essence of > the position. > > The problem comes in trying to define what those > shared values and frameworks are..... Excellent post DC, couldn't agee more

on the other hand they publish sensationslist stories on the environment and scaremongering articles on those that queation the EU superstate...;-)