????

david_carnell Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > This is a bitter pill to swallow, but I think I > know, partially, what Tony is getting at and to > some extent I have sympathy with his position or > the position of those he refers to. Let me > explain. > > There is, I believe, very large segments of people > within our society who sense that they are > threatened by massive immigration and by the > growing minorities within their borders that hail > from different cultures, follow different > practices, and have separate institutions and > loyalties. > > But street violence, verbal outbursts of hate, and > growing support for various extremist parties are > unwholesome reactions. People feel threatened that > their sense of identity, self-determination, and > culture, which come on top of concerns evoked by > globalization, new communications technologies, > and a gradual loss of national sovereignty are > being eroded. To throw the feelings of many > millions of people in their faces, calling them > ?discriminatory,? ?exclusionary,? ?hypocritical,? > and worse, is an easy politics, but is not truly > committed to resolving the problem. People?s > anxieties and concerns should not be dismissed out > of hand, nor can they be effectively treated by > labelling them racist or xenophobic. Furthermore, > telling people that they ?need? immigrants because > of economic reasons or demographic shortfalls > makes a valid and useful argument, but does not > address their profoundest misgivings. > > The challenge is to find ways to constructively > address these concerns. At the same time, we > should ensure that these sentiments do not find > antisocial, hateful, let alone violent > expressions. > > Two approaches are to be avoided: promoting > assimilation and unbounded multiculturalism. > Assimilation ? which entails requiring minorities > to abandon all of their distinct institutions, > cultures, values, habits, and connections to other > societies in order to fully mesh into the > prevailing culture (see France to an extent) ? is > sociologically difficult to achieve. It is morally > unjustified because of our respect for some > normative differences, such as to which gods we > pray. > > Unbounded multiculturalism ? which entails giving > up the concept of shared values, loyalties, and > identity in order to privilege ethnic and > religious differences, presuming that nations can > be replaced by a large number of diverse > minorities ? is also unwelcome. It is likely to > evoke undemocratic backlashes, ranging from > support for extremist, rightwing > parties and populist leaders (see the furore > surrounding the BNP) to anti-minority policies. It > is unjustified because it fails to recognize the > values and institutions held dear by the society > at large, such as those that protect women?s and > gay rights. > > The basic approach I favour is Diversity Within > Unity (from which I have plagiarised this post). > It presumes that all members of a given society > will fully respect and adhere to those basic > values and institutions that are considered part > of the basic shared framework of the society. At > the same time, every group in society is free to > maintain its distinct subculture ? those policies, > habits, and institutions that do not conflict with > the shared core ? and a strong measure of loyalty > to its country of origin, as long as this does not > trump loyalty to the society in which it lives if > these loyalties come into conflict. Respect for > the whole and respect for all is at the essence of > the position. > > The problem comes in trying to define what those > shared values and frameworks are..... Excellent post DC, couldn't agee more

on the other hand they publish sensationslist stories on the environment and scaremongering articles on those that queation the EU superstate...;-)

last January I ran out in my boxers 'cos a girl was screaming at 2am HELP ME, HELP ME, I'm pleased to say that at least 3 of my neighbours joined me (in better attire) I'm less pleased to say the girl was paralytic and arguing with her boyfriend

Sean, 1) We agree but my original point was that the results weren't that great (7% of 34%) and encouragingly the BNP did worse in areas where they have councils, where hopefully their stupidity as well as their prejudice is being exposed. To a latter point, but the failure of the EU to engage with the electorate is partly why they won these seats in the first place (low turn out) 2) Ignorance is no excuse for anything, but I hear stereotypical, prejudiced and sometimes pretty unpleasant views from some highly (including privately) educated people on a daily basis -as I'm sure you do. People from less priveliged and with poor education probably have more of an excuse.... mmmmm making sweeping judgements on them is very easy and not going to change their minds, which after all we should aspire to. 3) The Labour Party has largely ignored the White Working class and certainly the 'under-class' bits of it..wealth inequality has increased affecting the poorest sections of society (including of course many from ethnic minorities). The left wing of the Labour party tends to agree with me. 4) I use the term metropolitan elite 'cos I kept getting pulled up for "Middle class" "Bourgeois" etc ;-). BUT it is far easier for this group to claim a lack of prejudice and no problem with immigration etc when they have relative affluence and the flexibility of choice that gives them in housing, health etc 5) *Bobs* point on people being cocks - is true. Samuel Johnstone made a point once that people can@t be arsed to think about things, he was right, many most people don't ever 'think' much about things and so go to easy answers....the 'left' and 'Liberalism' has myriad of these. 6) Europe - great idea and sentiment but the lack of engagement because of *Bobs* point means it's never going to work. Finally, you don't half have some faith in our political elite which I don't share...

Sean, Thank you - I'll get back shortly

Mockney I'm almost giving up the Independent with his grumpy old man Fred Truman type rants....he was crap on the Tevez sh1te too

The market must be picking up...."Last few available" down at the flats opposite ED station

I'll be there

Sherwick Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > If you think the Daily Mail's bad, take a gander > at BBC's HYS..! Almost fanatical BNP support on > there. Sherwick - that's not co-incidental, one of the BNPs tactics is to hit as many websites as they can, a drip, drip of sh1te

PS How about a reasonable response to my points rather than saying they're all cliched buzzwords- I think your response is pretty much a rabid rant...maybe you're catching it of one of your fellow gooners

Polemic once more Sean - which to be honest you resort to quite s lot, and I can't really find the arguments beneath your rant,,,,you really do come over as someone whoe duty it is to fight any questioning of paint by numbers liberalism with a "YOU'RE DAILY MAIL" type response, whivh you hsve levelled at me before, prejudice is a two way street. I expect that I'm just as pissed off as you about the BNP getting in I'm looking for a bit more analysis and trying to understand why.....

Let's put this into perspective they got 7% of 34% of the vote...this sadly gives them some legitimacy but is not the break through they claim. Many of the comments reflect a truth thst Labour has by and large ignored the white workig class SOME of whom have believed and been fooled into believing that the BNP offers them something better. Immigration as an issue has ignored by mainstream parties too although for many people, including 2nd generation immigrants it is an issue, however uncomfrtable the metropolitan middle classes are with thst. Finally, it illustrtes what a danger the continued devoluton of power to a european superstate that has declining engagement in practically all the big member states is. People in europe are getting more like us little enganders in their views of a massive, detached, bureacratic, unaccountable thng somewhere in Brussels....economic union maybe...political, mmmmm

hey, just cos you beat the jocks, it's not like they are dutch or anything

Hey Guys - can we take this offline now?

in my mind it illusrates the fundamental failure of the EU- an enoonomic union fine,a political superstate thst few engage with and is falling in popularity in most member stste, is rife wih corruptionn and doesn't act as a democracy when those in the elebtorste are allowed a vote and don't vote the way the political elite wants is a huge danger to political engagement and hence democracy....don't blame those thst didn't vote

Tony,PSSS Fictional fella

Flashman Falstaff the Lawyer from Fear & Loathing you get the picture

correct brum

Nope

There's strings attached but i'm well protected by colourfull friends and of course my angels

What are you trying to say? target the victims? If you read my post you'll see it's about the law not its enforcemenht -I'm suggesting tht the courts desl with those that carry knives in a harsher way and given an example of when thid worked in the past

It#s Dennis Hopper but I can't remeber the name

pinky?

HAL9000 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > ???? Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > well, you are going against historicsl (not > > religous) orthodoxy so unless your Simon Schama > > I'm gonna go with them. Prove it? how the hell > am > > I going to and can I be arsed to go and get you > > evidence at 7.30pm on a tuesday in my holidsy > > week....go figure as they say... > > I'm sorry - you were the one that offered up > evidence. Opinion is not evidence, I'm sure you > know that. > > > all Jewish, islamic and christian records are > of > > no historicsl value snd the other sources are > > pious fakes... > > Ok, I've got this ancient document written in > Hebrew that says G-d gave me your house, valuables > and your ass. You can keep the ass, just PM me > when you've vacated the premises and I'll nip over > and take possession. Leave the ???? on the table. > May the Lord go with you. > > > do you run an american conspiracy > > theory website by any chance? > > How did you guess? Don't tell me - the little > voice in your head, wasn't it? > > Seriously, there ain't no evidence, is there? Just > wishful thinking and blind faith. Have a good > holiday. Wikpedia - Muhammad's life is well documented within numerous records in historical texts, although like other premodern historical figures not every detail of his life is known

the Aussie out...sad, sad news