????

They didn't have nuclear weapons in the 19th Century Lou

red devil Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I think that article is spot on, especially this > bit... > > ''It was success with a small ?s?, a > by-the-numbers affair which was worth a handshake > and a ?well done? rather than rapturous applause > and a standing ovation.'' > > But BFS didn't even warrant that from the EDF > Hammers... As the article says: "Sam Allardyce probably should be more respected for what he did during those four years, but that he is not is almost entirely his own fault."

this is a long C&p but sums up BFS and West Ham very well to me: Sam Allardyce will return to Upton Park tomorrow and he will, at best, receive a tepid reception. Whether the attending West Ham fans are openly hostile is a different matter, but Allardyce shouldn?t ride into London expecting a hero?s welcome. Reliably, the prelude to this game has featured the usual arguments as to why West Ham supporters owe their former manager more than they?re willing to give and, again predictably, the army of Proper Football Men have all made themselves available to testify on Allardyce?s behalf. He controlled the club?s decline, he returned them to the Premier League, and he re-stabilised them. That perspective has always been presented in quite a superficial way. West Ham did bounce back from relegation at the first opportunity and they remain a top-flight side largely because of his contribution. It was success with a small ?s?, a by-the-numbers affair which was worth a handshake and a ?well done? rather than rapturous applause and a standing ovation. That?s the heart of this issue: the disparity between the affection he felt he was owed and what he was really entitled to is ? and always has been ? very wide. Allardyce holds his own abilities in extraordinarily high regard and he radiates self-worth. To an extent that?s reasonable, because there are very few British managers who have enjoyed such top-flight longevity. But then that?s also part of the problem. While ego is fine ? and probably a mandatory quality in a successful coach ? he has never been particularly good at recognising his weaknesses or owning his mistakes. And there were plenty of mistakes at West Ham, both in a footballing sense and also in how he conducted himself. Football supporters are not fools and while some are emotionally volatile, many more understand the game in great depth. Allardyce underestimated that. He repeatedly patronised those fans and, intentionally or otherwise, insulted their intelligence. It was naive; West Ham laboured to promotion from the Championship in 2012 with comfortably the strongest side in the division and in each of the three following seasons, in spite of significant spending, the side suffered through horribly fallow form. West Ham were sometimes very effective and the list of clubs they beat during that period attests to that, but they were often very poor indeed. Ultimately, that?s rather incidental. A shortage of entertainment paled in significance to the avoidance of relegation and, given the upcoming Olympic Stadium tenancy and the swelling television contract, survival trumped all other concerns. But it always seemed as if Allardyce assessed his own contribution in very literal terms and judged his tenure in an overly-binary way. In his mind, he was set a series of objectives, he achieved them, and that meant that nobody was entitled to have any doubts over his management ? to him, the uneasy relationship he had with that fanbase was symptomatic of their narrow perspective. It?s maybe okay to think that, but it?s something else to express it. Allardyce was publicly contemptuous of those who criticised him and remains so to this day. ?The fans were being brainwashed into thinking that, historically, the club had a particular style of play which was akin to Barcelona, which was potty. I once called the supporters deluded and I stand by that. I don?t know who invented the West Ham way phrase, but it?s a millstone around the club?s neck.? Management, during difficult times, is about appeasement. Because of the cost of sitting in a Premier League ground in the 21st Century, head-coaches are obliged to show a certain level of contrition when performances are sub-standard. Conversely, by shirking that responsibility, making antagonistic gestures, and insisting that there?s no case to answer, a manager will very quickly drain his supply of goodwill. When a manager shows humility, supporters will typically gravitate towards him. But if he continuously behaves as if he?s beyond reproach, the atmosphere will quickly become very toxic indeed. Sam Allardyce probably should be more respected for what he did during those four years, but that he is not is almost entirely his own fault. That?s the problem here, that?s the error which so many of these think-pieces make: the lack of love between the two parties is commonly blamed on snobbish native attitudes. Allardyce is characterised as the humble football man who gave his very best performance, only to be booed off the stage by a overly-demanding audience. He was the victim, the humble pragmatist who was unjustly heckled by an elitist crowd. No, he was an antagonist. West Ham may not have been an easy job between 2011-2014, but he commonly presented his functional performance as an act of super-heroism. In his own mind he was a thrifty magician, holding back the tide of financial disparity and making the most with what little he had. In truth, he was spending eight figures on Andy Carroll and Matt Jarvis and then cupping his hand to the crowd after parking the bus at home against a ten-man Hull City. It was hard to see the miracle. Had he been more humble during that time and had he recognised his own fallibility, all the irritations felt during his reign would already have melted away and the prevailing attitude would have been to focus on what he did right. But it won?t be, because he believes that he only did right and that anyone contesting that is beneath his consideration.

6100

er, no. we'd have a single trade agreement with the EU like other countries do; and that would be rushed through by the big beast of Europe as we are a massive importer of their products and we run a trade defeceit with them; it would be put through pretty quickly.

Lead or silver?

Listen I'm a reluctant pro but we wouldn't be paying import/export duties France & Germany would want us in a trade agreement straightaway given we are their 3rd biggest export market and our BoP with them is very much in their favour - the trade argument put about by the pros is false. The inward investment argument is more convincing.

Because the fact that they are there reflects the population's disengagement. Do you know who your MEP is?

Agree Jah. Excellent. war & peace promised more than it delivered but this was great. Hugh Lawrie superb as the baddy, genuinely menacing Bon homie. Will be watching.

steel is mined?

Blah Blah Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Louisa, you are deluded. Why do you keep arguing > that the UK will get a more favourable deal than > Norway and Switzerland? Do you think either of > those two countries will let that happen? I've > posted articles and data put together by people > far more in the know than you. Read then and then > challenge those if you can. Just assuming we are a > more important player than Norway and Switzerland > and that the EU will bow before us is so > ridiculous. the UK is Germany's 3rd biggest market - Switzerland its 9th ad Norway its 29th The UK is also France's 3rd biggest market - total exports to the UK E39bn compared to E15bn for Switzerland and E6.3bn for Norway..... So I think we are (a more important player)

ratty Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Ooh touched a patriotic nerve there! Nope ratty you said you'd be out of this shithole well why aren't you? Because it's bullshit possibly? That these fantastic European bastions of fairness and opportunity don't exist maybe? Just asking the question why you stay if you hate this sh1thole so much. I just don't think this country is that bad I know 90% of middle class lefties do but I don't have you in the Emma Thompson camp. Ooh it's terrible but I soldier on.....i call bullshit

Blah Blah Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > ???? the poor are trapped. Telling people to f off > to another country because their own government is > too right wing to care about them is no answer. > Just look at the six Tory cabinet members that are > for Brexit, some of the nastiest and most right > wing people in government. I wad speaking specifically to ratty and more generally to middle class lefties not the poor.

So if you're in a stamped bit you hate and hate being in and you have free movement to other stamped bits which have govts that suit your political beliefs why stay in this social construct rather than go to another social construct which has the type of social constructed philosophy as "its" own govt (another social construct); you been on the hash cookies AM?

France, Greece, Portugal and now Spain all have lefty govts why don't you fuck off to one of them if you hate your own country so much?

ratty Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > In! I'd vote to leave this uncaring, selfish, poor > bashing shithole of a country if I could! Viva > Europe! such a shithole, filled with young Europeans who have fled their paradises with no jobs or opportunities for our shithole. Or haven't you noticed? You can go anywhere in Europe ratty, so I call typical lefty bullsh1t

Also fed up with the arguments that all antis are little englanders, same argument was used about the Euro and I shudder to think the disaster we'd have faced in that idiocy. Credit to Balls and Brown, very rare from me.

Will be very reluctantly voting to remain. Very unconvinced Europe is ready to the make the necessary reforms for its flailing economies or democratic engagement or much needed bureaucratic reform but do fear for our economy for out. I think Cameron has been incredibly weak and underplayed our negotiations. We have a trade deficit with the EU, are a massive trading partner for the likes of France and Germany who would have granted us an immediate trade deal anyway we are net contributor and many of the Northern European countries share our basic economic philosophy and views on markets etc. Europe would be far weaker without us in and Cameron's rolled over. Not sure an out vote will worry me that much.

Careful what you wish for it's all about results blah, blah, blah :)

It has crept upon me since 50 Mick it's true.

I have a massive confession. I don't really like going to pubs anymore I was bought up in a pub going extended family and the pub was central to my life for most of my teenage years and the majority of my adult life. Nowadays I can't understand the attraction of going night after night or staying out until the early hours in pubs. I don't mind going out once in a while to the pub but in general it's a boring money drain and I'd rather do something else. There. I said it. I feel liberated an am embracing my grumpy old man.

To me punk was very much in the moment so I'm not sure about seeing them all 40 years on doing stuff from then. I have seen the Rejects relatively recently but that was West Ham thing :). Whatever happened to Johnny moped?

rahrahrah Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > My brother is always amazed (in a good way) when > he visits ED, to find that there isn't controlled > parking. He can never park near his house in > Cricklewood and has to pay a fortune every year to > have a permit. It's a nightmare when anyone visits > as he has to spend ages trying to purchase visitor > passes from Brent's highly unreliable online > service. The only people it serves are traffic > wardens and the council's finance department. This. It's a moneygrab.

..the problem is that it isn't really the fans that pay their wages now - more money comes from other stuff (TV mainly)

12th in the League BUT ...won the World Cup ...beat Spuds 4-1 at the Lane I'll settle for that