Parkdrive

Damian H Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Parkdrive Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > Damian H > > But what about the millions of 'Ordinary Joes' > who > > lied through their teeth to get mortgages and > > cynically exploited a lax financial system to > get > > hands on properties they knew they could not > > afford to pay for? What about them? I am sure > each > > of them would say they are small fry - too > > insignificant to have had any impact. Yet they > > lied and falisifed declarations of income > > nonetheless, significantly contributing en > masse > > to the collapse of the sub-prime market which > was > > the catalyst for the global financial collapse. > > > > First of all why was such a lax system allowed > to > > be implemented? Probably because those that > > implemented it thought there was money to be > made > > from the poor sods who saw this as the only way > on > > to to the property ladder. As for the comments > on > > here that many of us are jealous of these high > > earners, yes probably. But it doesn't alter the > > fact that the culture of paying people for > failure > > HAS to end. Are these people vilified unjustly? > > Perhaps, but then I'm sure their salaries will > > more then compensate for the grief and I'm sure > it > > goes with the territory. > > Parkdrive, > Your response buys into exactly the scapegoating > mentality that has been described and that I > challenged. Effectively you are saying that the > 'poor sods' are so desperate that no-one can > expect them to behave honestly when they are given > the opportunity to engage in a scam. This > completely absolves those who lied and cheated > from any moral culpability for their actions and > blames those they lied to. That is absurd! It is > the same mentality that says we should write-off > third world debt as it's unreasonable to expect > such countries to repay the loans they took out > and promised to repay. It's the same mentality > that says it's ok for people to shoplift from > Sainsburys because its a victimless crime and > Sainsburys are a b****rd corporate so they deserve > it. > > Yes, I have no doubt that banks entered the > sub-prime market in order to make money. In fact, > of course they did, they are commercial > organisations. That does NOT excuse the > exploitation of their products by dishonest > people. If we take this sort of mentality of > allowing people to shrug off any responsibility > for their actions and simply claim 'victim' status > there are going to be consequences (apart from the > obvious financial meltdown). One, if we write-off > third world debt there is just about zero prospect > of anyone lending these countries a penny in > future. They have got out of their current > obligations but have made themselves credit > pariahs in the eyes of the world. In terms of > sub-prime defaulters - go ahead, blame the banks > and march on Wall Street. The fact is that no > financial institution will touch the sub-prime > market ever again so those who wanted to get on > the property market will be shafted. > > If people act as if they cannot be held > accountable or behave responsibility, if they > default to 'victim' status the moment things go > wrong, they will not be given responsibility (in > this case that means credit opportunities). > > It's one reason why I can't stand this 99% > movement that emerged from Occupy Wall Street. > The message from that is "we, the 99%, are > wonderful, decent, honest people and the 1% are > villians who should be hung by their own > intestines from a lamp-post." It's claptrap. I > have no doubt that a great many of the 99% had > their snouts in the trough as much as anyone, just > on a smaller scale per individual. > > I have no problem with bonuses being tied to > achievements - that is as it should be, but a > great many people simply don't want to see bonuses > to bankers AT ALL. Full stop! > > In terms of whether people should take > vilification if they are paid enough - I don't > think that is anyone's job description. People > should be held reasonably accountable, certainly, > whatever their level in society. When someone is > used as a political football and has their > property attacked as an act of scapegoating for > others to conceal their culpability that is > unacceptable. I don't buy into any such scapegoating. At the end of the day any institution or group of individuals that really believes it ok to let people take on a mortgage/loan without due diligence or robust financial checks deserve all it gets. Taking as gospel a claim that an individual earns 4 or 5 times their actual earnings, because the the way the product is pitched actually encourages them to do is bordering on criminal negligence. That doesn't excuse the applicant, but pitching such a product and then expecting nobody to apply for it sort of defeats the object of the exercise. I've never said or even hinted that anyone, bankers included, shouldn't receive a bonus for a job well done. But very few people in the UK today get a bonus full stop. I haven't for the best part of 10 years and I'm not really fussed as I knew that when I took my jobs on. I find your remarks somewhat patronsing. Going back to the sub prime thing, you seem to suggest that the fault should be laid at the door or those that bought into the product and that those that pushed it are blameless, try and get your balance right and you might find some support. Bonuses are a sore point and that will remain the case while only a small perecentage of the population have any chance of getting one. I speak as someone that has enjoyed packages that included an end of year bonus in the region of 10% of gross salary and 15% non contributory pension plan, and free BUPA from family and I. This is no longer is the case, so I can understand both sides of the argument, but I don't try to lay the blame on a single entity of individual, I'd settle for proportional responsibility weighted against those that sell the product.

I'll find it hard to support a team captained by Terry. On an even more shocking note, football tribalism plumbs new depths with the deaths in Egypt. Shocked and saddened in equal measure. For all the verbal hostility on here, the scenes on TV yesterday were horrific, and makes wonder if scenes such as these could ever be repeated here. I'd like to think not.

Damian H But what about the millions of 'Ordinary Joes' who lied through their teeth to get mortgages and cynically exploited a lax financial system to get hands on properties they knew they could not afford to pay for? What about them? I am sure each of them would say they are small fry - too insignificant to have had any impact. Yet they lied and falisifed declarations of income nonetheless, significantly contributing en masse to the collapse of the sub-prime market which was the catalyst for the global financial collapse. First of all why was such a lax system allowed to be implemented? Probably because those that implemented it thought there was money to be made from the poor sods who saw this as the only way on to to the property ladder. As for the comments on here that many of us are jealous of these high earners, yes probably. But it doesn't alter the fact that the culture of paying people for failure HAS to end. Are these people vilified unjustly? Perhaps, but then I'm sure their salaries will more then compensate for the grief and I'm sure it goes with the territory.

Jah Lush Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > KidKruger Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > > The guy took risks and he got knighted for his > > success and the good it did the country and > > banking industry. There's no man here who can > > honestly say he would have run the RBSG group > any > > differently or 'better' than Fred Goodwin. > > It's easy to take risks with other peoples money. Its not often I agree with Jah, but he's on the money here. Pun intended

The guy took risks and he got knighted for his success and the good it did the country and banking industry. There's no man here who can honestly say he would have run the RBSG group any differently or 'better' than Fred Goodwin So risk takers should be rewarded for their contribution to the economy. Step forward Paddy Power, Betfred, Ladrokes, I dub thee collectively knights of the realm. But don't bank on it.

Atticus Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Seems a bit cloudy tonight Blue Moon, you will win > f' all this season and that is exactly what you > and your arrogant lot deserve. you thought you had > the league by November, here come the big boys... > I despise UTD but anyday before you, hopefully > spurs. United? Really??? Not as long as I have breath in my body. As for arrogant it must be a Manc thing, it's obviously spreading from the neighbours, who take the prize all day long for arrogance.

Jah Lush Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Parkdrive Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > For those that are quick to accuse and seem to > > have very selective memories. > > > > > > > > > http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article- > > > 345313/Van-Persie-unsure-Todd-blow.html > > Jeez! 2005. What are you an elephant? Better that than a twitching churchill dog!! Just trying to balance things up. I wonder if posters on here will be as quick to jump on the bandwagon when an allegation is levelled at one of their own? Nah

For those that are quick to accuse and seem to have very selective memories. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-345313/Van-Persie-unsure-Todd-blow.html

Bluerevolution Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > RVP at Etihad apparently- fancy having Arsenal as > our feeder club ! ;-) I'm sure he'll be at about as useful Na$ri and Clichy. Terrific signings eh? As for elbowing, coming from the supporters of the rags is laughable, Roy (the mad dog) Keane broken leg specialist used to play for your mob didn't he? That doyen of the late tackle Scholes still does doesn't he? In recent seasons we've had the likes of Diaby suffer a broken and dislocated ankle during an end of season game against Sunderland, which went unpunished, not even a yellow card. So when opposition fans, especially the rags, try to take the moral high ground and act with righteous indignation I just smile. Pot and kettle.

Mick Mac Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Certainly booing Evra is not necessarily racist. > He was probably targeted due to being part of a > racist dispute with Suarez. Part of a racist dispute? No, he was the victim OF racial abuse for which the perpetrator was duly punished. And the morons that booed him showed that racism in English football in on the increase rather than, as we all hoped, diminishing.

gwingwyn Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Starbucks, the new world Just what we need, another soulless american franchise serving piss poor, over priced crap.

I still can't believe "King Kenny" tried to explain away the booing as banter. Sorry, you've gone down in my estimation. That's like saying the disgraceful chants about Liverpool fans being murderers and opposition fans singing sickening taunts about the Munich air disaster, or more recently Chelsea "fans" chanting "you know what you are" at Anton Ferdinand, are just banter. Come on your highness, who are you trying to kid.

Otta Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Pathetic yes, but "condoning racism", I don't > think so. > > Don't get me wrong, I am sure there were a number > of brainless racist morons in amongst the crowd > (as I'm sure there are at most football matches), > but for the most part AM has it right. You got our > player banned, so Boo to you. > > Pathetic yes, but not as sinister as I think some > are trying to suggest. You got our player banned? And why has he been banned? For racist abuse yes? Hence my remarks that the booing was a disgrace and shameful.

Otta Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I'm not excusing anything, I'm just saying I don't > think booing Evra today was "condoning" racism. Nor is it a chorus of disapproval against racism is it?

Alan Medic Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Parkdrive Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > Booing from the Liverpool fans for Evra, > > absolutely disgarceful. You should be ashamed > of > > yourselves condoning racism. De Gea you are > > toilet!!!!! > > You really think Arse's fans would have been any > different? Many football fans at all clubs appear > to come across as morons. They are judge and jury > of anyone in the news who happens to play > football.Liverpool's are no different. > > De Gea needs time to develop. The Arsenal fans aren't the subject of discussion here, Liverpool "fans" are. "King" Kenny wearing that ridiculous Suarez shirt and allowing his players to the the same was ill advised and as it turns out has come back to bite him on his arse. If Arsenal fans ever stoop to such depths I'll be the first to slaughter them. Back to the matter in hand, Liverpool fans hang yout heads in shame igf to try to excuse, expalin away, or condone the booing. Shameful.

Booing from the Liverpool fans for Evra, absolutely disgarceful. You should be ashamed of yourselves condoning racism. De Gea you are toilet!!!!!

red devil Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Isn't Talksport full of self-opinionated put the > world to rights nutjobs?... > > *sound of penny dropping* That's the one, the only station that would give Southerner and rags fan Andy Goldstein his own show. *sound of EDF rags fans growling*

I'm at a loss to understand why Talksport would suggest that Evra should be rested on the basis that he may get an adverse reaction from the crowd in the game tomorrow. FFS.

During 'arrys case, he was asked why his financial affairs were so badly documented. He replied that most of his deals were conducted with a nod and a wink.

Parkdrive Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Wonder if it's worth having a flutter on which > City player will get sent off tonight? Not far from the truth very suspect penalty given instead. Much of a muchness.

Jah Lush Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > He also won the FA Cup for Portsmouth and got them > playing in Europe for the one and only time in > their history. Also, got Southampton relegated on > the last day of the season from the Premiership > much to the delight of Portsmouth fans. Took West > Ham to a 5th place finish in the Premier League > and developed some great talent there too - > Carrick, Cole, Ferdinand, Lampard etc. Tony Carr didn't develop these guys then? I think its his shady, shifty dealings that he'll be most remembered for by most fans. If he is found guilty of some but not all charges, I wonder if there'll still be a clamour for him to be named as the next England manager?

murphy Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > El Clasico - Real Madrid very unlucky, ref seemed > to give everything to Barcelona, disallowed goal, > dodgy sending off, added nowhere near enough extra > time and then blew before time was up. REf should have sent off Diara for Real, not sure how he and Pepe didn't get their marching orders. Great game though and 4 great goals especially the Alves and Benzema ones.

???? Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > The bloke's and excellent manager but old school > dodgy. > Not sure fans of Portsmouth, West Ham, and Southampton would agree with you on the excellent part.

El Clasico living up to the hype!!! Real have most of the first half yet find themselves 2 nil down. As for Alves goal. What a peach!!

What a goal!!!!!!!!