Nice soundbites Huguenot - Are you using the forum direct from party conference? I was 'quibbling' over stats because you made your point using stats. Sean is exactly right that without campaigning groups you get no social change. Perhaps you think that women getting the vote was a mere distortion of perspective? And the abolition of slavery in America was just those naughty warring factions again. nobody's going to argue with you about poverty and ignorance. But where do you think homphobia, sexism, racism and comes from but ignorance? And if noone in the mainstream cares enough to do anything but sweep this stuff under the carpet then how are you going to combat the ignorance?