Jenny1

robbin Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > > I should have read the ballot paper as asking do > you want to (1) stay; or (2) leave (whatever that > means - we don't know)! > > I think if you'd read the small print, robbin, you'd have found that that's exactly what it did say. That's the reality of the choice that our 'leading politicians' gave us.

I think it's vital to acknowledge that this is a time of change in many areas of politics. And while no-one can predict how the picture will pan out, it's always important to work towards a future which you think will be positive and productive. In my experience it's pointless to live your life in any other way. Of course we can all be cynical about what motivates politicians (and my goodness this is - of all moments - a time that reinforces such feelings of cynicism). But if we don't ask them to step up to the plate, who will? Some years ago we'd have thought it highly improbable that we'd have a coalition government - but that's what we got. That was in far less dramatic times than we're experiencing now.

To address the overall question of xenophobia and racism as it relates to this referendum. I find myself agreeing with Matthew Parris. http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/07/for-the-first-time-in-my-life-i-feel-ashamed-to-be-british/

I'm sure you're right Loz that the Greens will use the contact details gathered for their own publicity purposes. I think it would be a bit silly of them not to. However I do see a point to a petition. If I was in their shoes and picking up that phone I would want to be able to say that I had x thousand people supporting my initiative. It would help with the conversation, don't you think?

I quite agree on the need for deep, wide-ranging EU reform. And yes, it's only from the inside that one can influence that. While I can't claim to be a macro-economic expert, I'd have said that the crash of 2008 was as much to blame for the current economic woes of much of Europe as EU membership. And it's arguable that the effects of that crash would have been more severe without it. But I now fear I may have hijacked a thread dedicated to personal reflections with other issues - so apologies for that.

I agree that Spain and France are more regionally divided than we are. As we're all aware, I'm sure, Catalonia would much rather be part of the EU than of Spain. And absolutely - if the French were asked to vote tomorrow on EU membership - they'd chose to leave. But that doesn't alter the fact that their regions and localities have benefited massively from membership. It seems that most people are quite capable of holding at least two mutually exclusive ideas in their heads simultaneously. But I do deeply regret that the message hasn't got through in this country that local and regional prosperity is strong within the EU. I too am looking forwards, but I'm also doing all I can to make sure that, where choices still exist, good ones are made. And that no open door is closed prematurely.

Very nicely put Seabag! I see part of what you're expressing as a respect for the need for small, isolated or disenfranchised communities (particularly ones that feel 'embattled') to preserve their own identity. I completely understand and support that. What seems so sad and ironic is that actually Spain, France and Italy have shown that it's easier to preserve regional and local identity and prosperity within the EU. The tragedy is that that message hasn't got across in the UK.

signed and shared. The wording is: 'These are troubling times. Our economy is in chaos. Our politics is broken. The Tories want to set the terms of our exit from the European Union. This petition calls on politicians from the Labour Party, the Green Party, SNP, Plaid Cymru, the Liberal Democrats and other progressive parties to immediately begin talks about building an alliance ahead of the next election. Despite what the Tories are now saying an Autumn election is likely. Progressives need to be ready for that. We the undersigned urge that party leaders begin talks on a progressive alliance, which includes a commitment to proportional representation and an aim of preventing the formation of a Tory-UKIP-DUP government that would seek to enact an ultra-right Brexit.' I liked it.

WM. Thank you. Love it. Signed it. Shared it. Can I suggest you start a new thread called something like 'new opposition alliance', with this petition link as the starting point?

WorkingMummy Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > People in Middlesborough who don't > give a xxxx about the EU, who have seen a marked > increase in immigration from the Middle East in > the last two years and who responded to that > mostly with great humanity (churches with very > poor congregations running English language > courses, helping refugees with housing > applications, that kind of thing) - communities > like that who voted leave because austerity is > hurting them - badly - and they feel they have > nothing left to lose and this vote was an > opportunity, to demand change, of some kind - > none of that is a problem to me. I have no anger > at all for them - only anger towards the > government who put them in that position and was > then arrogant enough to ask for their support and > trust in a popular vote. > > I couldn't agree more WM. I have friends who've worked on projects like that in Middlesborough. And yes. Cameron and his team are to blame for not addressing inequality in this country and not understanding what the results of that would be. One result was the outcome of this vote - which many in deprived areas perceived as a chance to deliver a 'kick in the pants' to the rich and the ruling class. Tragically a smaller UK, outside the EU, is going to be a much crueler place for the poor and disenfranchised. What we need now is a coalition of opposition parties united behind addressing those issues of inequality and keeping us in the EU. I haven't given up hope on that - just because someone directs you towards the edge of a cliff, doesn't mean you're honour bound to jump off. I - and others - are looking for ways of getting that message through to MPs so they have the courage to take charge of this situation.

Rook Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > > There seems to be a curious expectation that many > who voted leave are now certain to be head in > hands, crying at their stupidity. Ummmm no, not > here or with many others I know (yes educated > professionals too!) > > Hello Rook! How are you? I hope you have a nice day too! I don't think that actually (see above). I know some who regret it and others who don't. I happen to sympathise with and agree with the former, and not the latter. I don't use Facebook personally so can't really commit on its overall merits.

Seabag Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > ..... while Blair may need dealing with, there's > pressing business that this country needs to deal > with now. And as leader of the opposition as > opposed to Leader of The (conceptual) Labour > Party, he needs to get his party on board and > focused > > http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/corbyn-digs-in-h > eels-until-he-can-crucify-blair-q3v7p6qwg I agree. And if he was a man who looked capable of multi-tasking it might be OK. But he doesn't.

Loz Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Seen on Facebook today: > > How about we don't leave the EU, but tell Leave > voters we have? > > They believed all the other lies, after all. This DID make me laugh. Thanks Loz!

rahrahrah Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Whilst no one can know what is in another persons > heart - I do think Farage is probably quite > racist. Whilst I'm sure he'd condemn the loud > punchy, out there type of racists - That poster, > the talking about immigrants bringing crime and > disease, complaints about people on the tube > talking in foreign languages - you don't have to > read too hard between the lines. > > Sure, it's racist in quite a polite, banal, > subtle, guarded manner - The acceptable face of > racism. It's that 1970's, casual, almost > instinctive, everyday racism, which is not at all > uncommon (especially amongst people of his > generation and older. In someways it's far more > insidious. > > This is the thing, when people say that it's a > 'small minority of racists', I am not so sure > that's correct. I think racism is actually > incredibly pervasive, it's just not that shouty, > out there type which everyone can comfortably > condemn because it's so crass. I agree with this rahrahrah. I remember those attitudes very well from the 1970s. And I think Farage embodies them. My view would be that the emotions that drive these ideas are fear and insecurity. Where they originated for Farage personally I couldn't say. But they carry more traction with a wider public when economic conditions are tougher. So it seems natural they're now coming to the surface in a time of austerity, in the same way as they did in the bad old days of the three-day-week. There's a kind of turning inwards, and lashing outwards, that happens at such times. As many others have pointed out it's the economic crash of 2008 that set the scene for the dramas playing out today. Without that Farage would have remained a lone, and largely unheeded, voice in the wilderness. But it's chilling to think that far worse people have risen to power in similar circumstances.

Hi Lordship. Good to see the numbers increasing. Do have a look at latest PM discussion.

My fear is that it'll be just like the last time he 'resigned'.

Hi Lordship. Please see PM re contacting MPs directly. Thanks.

Hi Lordship. Very nice to see the numbers rising. Do have a look at latest PM thread re this.

Would you favour an SNP/Lib Dem alliance at this point Townleygreen? I'd certainly welcome it.

To be fair to Farage...(And I never thought I'd hear myself say that)....I think he did want to win. But of course, on his own, he wouldn't have had a hope in hell.

Foolish to divide the country. Foolish to throw it into economic turmoil. Foolish to leave it at the mercy of leading politicians who, whilst campaigning to leave the EU, had not the slightest real wish to win the referendum and - once they'd done so - had no alternative plan to put in place.

But wouldn't you agree that that was extremely foolish?

It would not have been relevant ed_pete as I do not think MPs are usually required to debate/vote on maintaining the status quo.

Hi Lordship. Good thinking. I've PM'ed you (and pebs and muffins if they're about).

Well done to Lordship 516, muffins78 and pebs. Signed and shared.