TheCat

More referring to people voting on principle. I know some remain voters who did absolutley no research, and their only rationale for voting remain was 'I'm not a rascist'. Of course a good thing to aspire to, but not exactly any more informed than the charactiture of the standard leave voter is it? With regards to hoodwinked...well we could go over all the 'lies' of the remain campaign....but that's a can or worms that been opened many times before...

diable rouge Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I've found that poll I referred to earlier, it's > quite the eye > opener...https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/arti > cles-reports/2019/06/18/most-conservative-members- > would-see-party-destroye > > Not only were Tory members strongly in favour of > breaking up the Union, they were just as strongly > in favour of there being ''significant'' damage to > the UK economy and even the ''destruction'' of the > Tory party itself, if it meant delivering Brexit. > I think it's fair to say that for them at least, > Brexit was definitely an emotional vote, and I > suspect for a lot of non-Tory members likewise. > I've long thought that how Cat came about his > decision to vote Leave was an outlier, and instead > most people voted on a more simplistic, emotional > basis, on the Remain side too. > > Any emotional vote very much plays into the > 'Braveheart' narrative... Don't disagree.....many people will indeed vote on 'principle' or 'concept' without all the detail. I'm sure most remain voters did exactly the same. Doesn't necessarily make it wrong, it's probably how most people vote in most elections, most of the time. I probably was an outlier in the amount of independent research I did (it's sort of my job, so wasn't too heroic!). But also, perhaps there are more similar 'outliers' than you think. My biggest objection to the post-referendum back and forth, is the constant assumption that all leave voters are either thick, racist or were hoodwinked. Sure some are....some remain voters were too. So you and seabag may well be right. And the Scottish will vote with the heart. Fair enough, that's there prerogative.

alex_b Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Blah Blah Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > Sturgeon in some ways is arguing for a choice > > between the EU or the Union, but the SNP are > > nationalists at heart and that has to be > > remembered. How will that nationalism sit in > the > > context of the EU? > > Scottish nationalism, or at least the SNP, have > been vocally pro-EU for a very long time. I > imagine this is for pragmatic (hard to see > Scotland going it alone outside the EU as was a > key point in the last referendum), historic > (French, Scandinavian and Irish ties with certain > Scots) and political (it winds up the English > right wing). In that way the SNP are not a > traditional isolationist nationalist party. Agree with this. The snp is using the idea of the EU as a tool to get what it it wants. I can't recall the SNP banging on about the EU in years gone by (I'm sure they may have mentioned it, but it wasn't a key plank in any way)....but now it's politically expedient to do so...... As I stated above, brexit and scexit are very different beasts....and I personally feel that the economic cost would be too much for the scots. Before I get attacked on this.....I've stated a few times before that I was undecided pre-brexit referendum, but I ended up coming down on the side of leave on balance, after my own research, conscious that there would be a short term economic hit. In the case of Scotland, I think the economic hit is too much.....

Perhaps this is more the right speed for this thread... https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/will-sturgeon-admit-to-the-cost-of-independence-

diable rouge Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Put it this way Cat, the 'EDF Remainers' won't be > coming to your next barbie...;-) You're missing out...you should see Mrs Cat when she gets a few gin's in her and starts up on the efficient frontier of modern portfolio theory... You'll know when we're had a session, as they'll be a thread started in the main section complaining about a loud party, carrying on until at least 6:30pm....

No fans of macroeconomics or monetary policy here then?...its seems exciting chat like that stops a lively thread dead in its tracks!!!:)

Are you licensed to use my likeness?

Ah...I see now.... UK pressing its concerns over Irish situation = cakeism EU pressing its concerns over Irish situation = Eu just protecting its own interests and the UK getting what it deserves The government should just give up striving for the UK's interests right? give up pushing for a better deal when it thinks it can? just rollover and accepts whatever the EU want at any time on anything yes? After all, 'brexiteers voted for this' so no matter how punitive the EU becomes, it was all part of it, so dont bother fighting for anything....

Sephiroth Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > You people are crazy > > I wrote this a few years back and it?s holds up > pretty well still > > Don?t go blaming eu - you did this. After all > ?you knew what you were voting for? > > /forum/read.php? > 20,1833347,2000118#msg-2000118 Blimey...the brass neck required to end a rant like that with an accusation that it's the other people who are overly emotive....

Sephiroth Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > The rules were partially written up and enforced > by U.K. for years and years. > > The eu has pointed out this problem for the last > few years > > This is all U.K. choice. They will need to join > up to some of the rules and give up this > puritanical version of sovereignty they have been > maniacally chasing As Keano says, some actions may or may not be petty...within that context ...to your mind....will anything that happens going forward, anything the EU decide to do in the future, no matter how unreasonable or spiteful...would this all just be the 'UK's choice'? Should the UK not have a reasonable expectation of good faith from a counterparty such as the EU? While I'm not suggesting you will ever accept that brexit was a good idea.....im interested in what level of action you would consider crosses the line from 'expected/reasonable protection of EU interests' to 'spiteful/resentful/petty 'payback'?

zerkalo Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > As a Greek person who has been living in the UK > for many years, I can honestly say that Greece has > overall benifited massively from being part of the > EU (since 1980) and adopting the Euro despite even > the EUzone crisis in 2015. > > JohnL Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > I suppose the argument is that people have > moved > > within the EU to where the money is - countries > > like Greece, Italy and Spain are losing their > > populations. Maybe that would have happened > > anyway and also maybe that's what happenes in > > large states ? Interesting. I personally find it quite extraordinary that a Greek national would suggest that Euro has been okay for Greece (not suggesting thats not a valid perspecive, just strongly disagree with the information I have focussed on). Sure...I can agree that membership of the EU has seen accelerated development over the past 40 years as (particularly in the early years of membership as inbound investment, lending and support from EU membership was significant. But the adoption of the Euro has been a disaster for Greece. More specifically...EU membership allowed Greece to borrow heavily at low interest rates and then, when it ran into difficulty, its use of the Euro meant it could not devalue its own currency to get out of trouble (had they been able to do this, the greek debt crisis could have been largely averted). Consequently, the country?s eurozone partners (I.e. Germany), along with the International Monetary Fund, moved in and, in return for more, low-interest loans, demanded steep cuts in public spending. That austerity helped tip Greece into a deep recession, and over the past 10 years or so the economy has contracted by around a quarter.... Let this be a lesson to the Scottish I would argue!

SpringTime Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > > > TheCat, you said that the Euro has been a disaster > in whole but is that 100% right? Yes, I can think > of several key moments - Greek financial for > example - but rollout was good, simplification of > exchange in the block, better established and > stronger trade block. Appears you might not see > things as others do on the Euro - what do you mean > by disaster start to finish? Sure, the rollout was fine. So i'll re-phrase....its been a disaster, but perhaps not right at the start:) GO and google 'Euro success', then go and google 'Euro disaster'...and you can draw your own conclusions, I am very much in the latter camp. But ahead of that...I think this is a pretty decent (and fair) synopsis.... https://theconversation.com/the-euro-at-20-an-enduring-success-but-a-fundamental-failure-108149

diable rouge Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Despite the various Gov impact assessments showing > an economic downside of No Deal and May's Deal > (Johnson's deal hasn't had one but considered > between the two), I don't recall many Leave voters > being deterred by them... ''What price > sovereignty?!'' > It's another example that if used by this Vote > Leave Gov, it will simply get thrown back in their > faces... ''It's a price worth paying!'' > #ProjectMcFear... True. But I think the devil is in the detail here. While Brexit and Scexit are similar in concept, they are very different in terms of practicalities of delivery of course. Just as Britain needs to refocus its legislation and incentivisation of various sectors for Brexit to be a long term success, so to does Scotland need to change its entire economic model. Personally, I believe that that would need to happen in a significantly more drastic way than compared to Britain/Brexit. The massive, oversized elephant in the room being the currency....if the price of rejoining the EU was accepting the Euro, that would be a total dealbreaker as far as Im concerned regardless of almost anything else. The Euro has been a disaster from start to finish - and for a country like Scotland trying to establish itself as an independent economy with a changing business model, without any control over your currency - well...lets just say I think that would make the most heinous Brexit project fear forecasts seem like a walk in the sunlit uplands.... But anyway...perhaps getting to technical for the moment, there are just high level thoughts...im sure when it comes to it they'll be plenty of economic reports to pore over in good time, and maybe there's a rabbit in the hat im not aware of yet...

Good and fair comment alex_b Seems like a big part of the problem which the UK has is what i see is the 'halfway house' regime known as 'devolution'. I would think that a country this size should either have no regional governments at all between boroughs and national gov (but I know there's hundreds of years of history that make this probably not practical in this case!), OR the UK should have a proper federal system - the problem here is that this would probably need to see England broken up into smaller 'states' as England being one state with over 80percent of the population would cause similar issues as to what we have now with devolution. (I don't think a federal system can work well with such a concentration of the population in one state -even if the upper house has equal state representation to offset the lower house concentration in one state, this can still cause significant risk of regular hung legislation and stalemate in such an uneven 'state' system as the current UK. I'd also echo Spartacus's comment above. I remember looking over the numbers in 2014, and being very much unconvinced that Scotland could afford to go it alone. Of course it wasn't a descision that I had to make, but as an observer, I felt there was far too much reliance on north sea petroleum revenues, which is a dying industry. So that would be a fascinated part of the overall debate for sure.

JohnL Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > TheCat Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > I wonder if this latest fiasco being discussed > on > > the vaccine wars thread will give many Scots > cause > > to reconsider their preferred option? > > If we compare to Brexit they want their > sovereignty at whatever cost. Of course whether > they then rejoin the EU is another decision. > While it appears to me (from afar) that there is of course a more hardcore group of Scottish independence supports who just want independence at any cost. It's hard to see how a major issue of any independence referendum would not be a painted as a straight up choice between remaining in the UK or re-joining the EU (at some future point)....

I wonder if this latest fiasco being discussed on the vaccine wars thread will give many Scots cause to reconsider their preferred option?

If was getting flyers for lamps selling for 200-300 quid, my first thought would also be that I needed to get my eyes tested!!!

I might quibble on a few little things you said above, But overall, you're right there is much to unpick, and overall, I think that a reasonable and balanced comment Sephiroth.

I'm pretty sure people have been talking about the EU vaccination procurement failures for the past couple of months DR. I can recall posting about it myself on here before Xmas only to have it dismissed. In fact, the 'we are fortunate' thread started by trinny was specifically all about it. So my comment wasn't focussed on people who haven't posted for a day or a week, and until your comment above, I can't recall much in the way of acknowledgment that the EU have stuffed up. But anyway...I totally agree with Spartacus and yourself, that global coordination is vital. But different government have made different decisions, and they have ramifications, serious ramifications. We should recognise where good and bad decisions have been made - at least as a means of learning from them if nothing else. The vaccine taskforce (which was setup on boris's direction and has been successful thus far) actually has multiple overarching goals - it would seek, first, full protection for UK citizens; second, international cooperation to provide vaccines for people in poorer countries everywhere; third, an infrastructure against future pandemics. They seems like reasonable, and we'll formed goals to me, with an eye on global co-operation Sure, the sentiment of the EU's goals in the common vaccination scheme are to be similarly applauded. The implementation? Not so much. While you rightly raise the point that we need global solutions, why should we gloss over the fact that this situation is a very tangible rationale for why some people might have supported Leaving the EU? They are two separate issues. The need for global solutions does not diminish the lethargy and incompetence of the EU on this specific issue, just as the success of the UK govt on this specific issue does not diminish the mis-steps they have made in other areas.

Whoeveritis Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I hate these lofts, they completely ruin the > Victorian houses. Ugly doesn?t even come in to it. > Why not just buy a bigger house that isn?t an > eyesore, is it because people are greedy? Why bother doing any upkeep or renovation work right? Your house needs repainting? Just buy a newly painted house that isn't an eyesore.

The government have got many things wrong, I don't think there's many people who would dispute that. Can we not just acknowledge and celebrate something they have done right?

I wonder how businesses would be affected by an extra 6-12 months or so of lockdowns and restrictions which we would most likely be subject to if still aligned with the EU vaccine policy...

Sorry, I really don't get it..I'll just wait until I understand the context to rejoin the fray...but in anycase....perhaps enjoy this one in the meantime...

That Brian Rose chap looks like a cartoon version of what most people think a banker looks like.... All he needs is a monacle and a fob watch to complete the picture....

Seabag Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > And now the three of you are a happy little > triangle. > > A TheCat?s cradle as it were. I've absolutley no idea what you're on about with either of the above comments....