TheCat

It's 'funny' isn't it? If the roles were reversed and the EU had 10 percent vaccinated and the UK had just 2-3 percent, and then Boris and co had decided to act as the EU has in bullying Big Pharma - the EDF europhiles would be lining up around the block to take pot shots at the 'murderous' UK Govt which is desperately trying to cover up for its incompetence. They would wail about how Boris has "blood on his hands' and they would cheer the idea of the govt being sued for negligence. But...I'm just speculating of course..instead...near silence on the EU failings from that same group of posters...And when it's been raised previously it gets dismissed as 'kind of sick' and not 'serious' to focus on such an aspect of breaking with the EU....

Seabag Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > TheCat Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > And yet there are children all over the country > > with eyes..... > > Vigilance by parents not to be underestimated. > > But come on, you know, everyone knows he?s a > shitbag. He might be your guy, but he?s still a > shitbag of a human being. He is in no way 'my guy'. supporting brexit and disliking boris are in no way mutually exclusive

And yet there are children all over the country with eyes.....

Seabag Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I?d actually prefer a swab up the arse, my nose is > way more sensitive. > > Is that TMI? You're in the import/export business right?:)

A new strategy to get the population sticking to lockdown/social distancing rules???? (Attached)

If we all conclude that its mistrust of Boris and Co thats a big driver of pro-independence sentiment, then one would have to caution the Scottish against reacting too much to the government of the day. One probably shouldn't make a 'once in a generation' decision because you dislike someone who is highly unlikely to not be in power in 3-4 years (Im aware thats of course not the only reason)

malumbu Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Sorry to interrupt your debate - we were > discussing Covid at work and one of my colleagues > said "the problem is that we have overestimated > the number of deaths" and then went onto criticise > developing countries for under-reporting. Not > sure if body language translated over a Teams > meeting, but was rather stunned that someone in my > general pier group subscribed to the conspiracy > theory that government was making much of this up > - for what reason heaven knows. We had a > smattering of casual racism (or some colonial > superiority or whatever) and no doubt would have > got into Brexit if we had half a chance. > > Not really a debating point as all the main > parties are on board with the need to lockdown to > protect the NHS. But as we are currently working > on a Covid related area was rather surprised. I > suppose it is an outer borough thing. May sound > pompous/stereotyping but something I have > witnessed before (reminds me of other conversation > with someone from Bexley - "that Stephen Lawrence, > he was no saint") I am unsure whether this would be classed as casual racisms or more a morbid comment on west african public health systems...but was chatting to a client who runs a large business in western africa (mali, Liberia, Burkina)...and he said that most of the people on the ground were pretty relaxed about COVID as they "see this sort of stuff all the time", and "Deaths are low from covid, as anyone at risk of COVID in this area is probably already dead of something else" It was a slightly awkward moment in the meeting.

Was interested to see the progression of opinion polling on Scottish independence...found a great table on this Wikipedia link showing the progression of opinion polls since the last referendum in 2014.... Interesting that opinion had been solidly against independence (apart from a shortlived month long flip immediately post the Brexit referendum) until it the 'no' lead started slipping in late 2019, before strongly flipping to 'yes' from mid-2020.... So I guess leaving the EU has clearly played its part in Scottish opinion, with the opinion polls sliding once it was clear boris got his Withdrawal Agreement...but interesting that the prospect of leaving the EU hadnt consistently flipped opinion between 2016-2019...seems like a big factor might just be dislike of Boris's govt (since 2019 election) and perhaps its the handling of COVID is the straw that broke the camels back.... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_on_Scottish_independence

Phew...glad you're back....I was worried I might actually have to do some work today.....

when it works its probably the fastest around. but has been very patchy lately. and quite slow today

diable rouge Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Spartacus Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > > it was you who called me "Stupidcus" yet I've > > never resorted to calling you names > > Well, if you insist on posting stupid comments. > How's your 'state sponsored genocide' plan > going?... DR, there does seem to be quite prevalent attitude on here along the lines of "well if someone says something 'stupid' they're going to get 'called out' for it" (not your words (that I've seen), to be fair)....but is that really how we collectively want the vibe of this forum to be? SO people are hesitant to express a view? When people feel attacked for saying what they think, their inclination will be to 'dig in/double down'...whereas if they feel there is a decent two way street, then they may concede certain points and end up softening their view anyway. And who is the arbiter of a 'stupid'? comment anyway? Perhaps trying to understand why someone has said something that you think is 'stupid' might be a more productive use of keystrokes?

Coolio. I'm pleased. I didn't want to be in another argument on here this week. I've had my fill for a while:)

"Cat - Sounds like a good out for politicians overall then, act with bluster/boast of things you've no clear way of seeing achievable and you'll be forgiven any lie. No accountability. Current model" No, dont think that's what I said. Not an 'out' at all. I did say that none of the above behaviors are desirable, but all are different...just that conflating and exaggerating everything they say that we dont like by calling it all 'lies' seems a bit disingenuous, almost like we are ly.....:) If your kid came home and said..."Im going to get 90% on my maths exam tomorrow!"...would you call them a liar if they didnt? Im also not suggesting that's a good example for all politicians behavior, and when politicians lie, they should be held to account for that, but not everything is a 'lie' I think its more shades of grey than black and white. Perhaps im being too fastidious with the definition of a lie.... NB: I am in no way a Boris fan despite what some posters on here may think....Boris is man with flexible principles to say the least, and is a serial liar.....it's just that not absolutely everything he says is a lie. So when left-wing politicians, press and others label everything questionable he says as a 'lie', it reduces the impact/care factor of the general public when he is actually lying.

For mine, the discussion about 'lying politicians' rarely seems to take the important step of disaggregating a blatant factual untruth from 'broken promises'.... i.e. I personally wouldn't call it lying when a politician in election mode says....."We're going to cut council tax by 20%"...and then they get elected and it turns out they don't cut council tax by 20%, for what could possibly be a million different reasons. That for me is a broken promise, not an untruth or a lie. But it would be a lie if say a politician endorsed a fabricated story about....say...an advisor that broke lockdown rules to go for a drive, and claimed he was just testing his eye-sight. Then there's the grey area between these two examples...lets use 'Get Brexit Done'....'done' obviously means different things to different people, and the slogan is purposefully vague by design. So can we accuse Politicains of 'lying' about getting it 'done', when it wasn't really clear what that was meant to mean in the first place? (arguably vagueness and lack of measureable targets is as serious a problem...but still different from lying nonetheless) Then there is a general 'exaggeration'....i.e. 'world beating' test and trace.....is this really a lie? Its certainly bluster and bravado to be sure. All politicians exaggerate on a daily basis, as do people in other forms of life; and I think the public can be trusted for the most part to see past that bullsh!t...(i.e. "London's best Pizza/coffee/sandwiches, served here!'). The there's 'conflation'..so for example bucketing anyone questioning lockdown measures in with those who deny the existence of Covid19 as a 'Covid Denier'...is using this term this a lie? I guess much of it probably comes back to whether its purposeful deceit or not. While all five are clearly undesirable, I think the charge of 'lying' is bandied about too often with regards to MP's of all colours. For mine, a blatant lie is the most galling of the three, as it involves purposeful deceit, rather than just failure to deliver(up as may be the case in the broken promises example).

Given the disruption to education over the past 12 months (and continuing) is there a valid case for the government to 'write off' this academic year across all year levels?...and start afresh in September in the same school year as was started last Septmeber. This would have the effect of basically making a permanent shift in the the ages of schooling from 4-17 to 5-18...which in itself I don't see as a massive problem, as arguably kids start school too young in the UK anyway. A key issue obviously comes at each end of that age range...parents expecting their 4 year olds to start school this September would suddenly be asked to wait another year (so the govt may have to provide further childcare funding support), and those who thought they were off into the world or off to uni at the end of this academic year will have another year to wait. Obviously this will see knock on effects at Universities...but if properly funded by the government (i.e. effectively underwrite university fees this year), then it could mean something similar is done at tertiary level, which wouldn't be the worst thing in the world, given the cohort of students who were set to graduate this year would be let loose on a jobs market which will have no jobs for them in 2021 (giving the economy a year to recover could make a lot of sense for hiring plans to normalise). And of course what of children who go to pvt schools...should parents be asked to pay an additional year of tuition from what they originally expected? Anyway, plenty of practical problems with such a suggestion...but would they be insurmountable when offset against the potential problems arising for children's education that such a drastic move might solve?

I endorse the sentiment Spartacus....particularly given these people endanger all of the rest of us. But would it open the floodgates for..say..smokers to be denied treatment for lung cancer? Overweight people denied treatment for diabetes? Car owners denied treatment for car crash injuries? Tories denied treatment for fox hunting injuries?, Lib Dem's denied treatment for injuries sustained due to be being largely irrelevant? Brexiteers denied any treatment developed in the EU? Remainers denied treatment paid for by the last 350m per week of NHS funding....anyway, I may have got carried away..you get the gist.....

too many threads can indeed be distracting Spartacus...if only there was a word to describe combining these thread's together.....you know...like pooling resources for a common good....

https://www.betootaadvocate.com/humans-of-betoota/pork-chop-denies-carrying-on/

I believe the correct terminology these days it 'Theydom' so as to be inclusive of all royals

ken78 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > TheCat Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > Ken78.....its clear we all react to things > > differently. > > > > As an aside, I'd advise you not to come on to > any > > of the politics or brexit threads, if you think > > the Sue is an EDF bully....she would have to be > > one of the more genteel amongst the rough and > > tumble of EDF brexit chats for example:)!! > > > LOOK AT THE ORIGINAL POST before you comment as it > might you look silly > > /forum/read.php? > 9,2163097,2180257#msg-2180257 I had a look. I don't feel particularly silly Kenny old boy. I mean, I would probably feel silly if I was behaving like you are on this thread. Where I come from, we call it "Carrying on like a pork chop"...you can look it up if you like, its not even an acronym for swearing, although I guess it may be offensive to vegans/vegetarians I suppose.... Serioulsy though mate, just let it go now. I dont think anyone's really winning on this thread (apart from MUFC)

JohnL Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Just heard on CNN that the Johnson & Johnson > vaccine will only require one dose On first read I thought this was a clever joke playing on Boris's name and the govt lengthening of the timing between doses....then I confirmed elsewhere that its a real story, which is exactly as it reads:) im still sure there's a good joke in there somewhere!

Blah Blah...and this is exactly why people talking about specific anecdotes is distracting. And why I refused for quite some time to discuss my own background or sector. Your 'wager' about my 'decent livelihood' is totally without any basis. Other than the sector I work in, you know absolutely nothing about my business, or financial situation. So your totally baseless opinion means exactly two-thirds of bugger all. By way of example, allow me to muse on seabag's business, which I know absolutley nothing about (my apologies seabag for what follows). But if seabag's business has lost 500K in the past 3 weeks then sounds like he has a decent livelihood to begin with. Shall we dismiss his views then? Even if he's extrapolating to a year of losses, that's still a decent business that many people could only dream of. But I'm just wildly guessing here, which it is totally unfair to do so. So I'd thank you to refrain from doing so about me and my situation. So perhaps we should all just mind our own business about people"s personal circumstances..particularly judgements about their relative financial comfort, and discuss the bigger picture. Also, once again you're at it with the ill-informed character assassinations...."You clearly see people's livelihoods as mere collateral damage, well people not as fortunate as you that is" . You make this statement armed with nothing more than your prejudice and bias. It's also not the first time I've called you out for making wild and baseless assumptions on people's character on this forum. It's funny how so many people on here are so concerned with the 'real human cost' of brexit, until one of those humans has the 'wrong' view on things.....

Seabag...Okay....fine....I wanted to avoid individual anecdotes, as that's not really how a massive decision such as this should be discussed in my view. I work in financial services. My business has no provision at all in the FTA agreement with the EU as I'm sure you well know. At the moment, I'm unable to provide new services to around 50percent of my client base. As I said, big decisions have relative winners and losers, so lets also look back a few years. Without going into specifics, what I do had absolutley nothing to do with causing the global financial crisis of 2008, but the resultant legislation (incidently, championed by the EU in the public witch hunt against 'bankers' at the time) affected my business in a very detrimental way. It was intended to increase transparency and competition, and it's done the exact opposite, with the large, bulge bracket financial institutions consolidating their market leading positions, and everyone else losing out. I have had to adapt what I do (as British business will do this time), and now earn significantly less than I did 10 years ago. I have been building things back up...and now there will be a bump in that recovery road provided by brexit's lack of a service agreement... As you've noted, I still support brexit, as I think the policy flexibility will be of benefit longer term. Does this background now give my position any more credibility in your eyes? I don't think it should, and I haven't mentioned this (or moaned about it) until now for that reason. You may disagree, but carrying on like your view is the only one that matters because your business is one that suffers? Get outside your echo chamber.

j.a. Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I think it?s fair to say TheCat is insulated from > the adjustment shocks that Brexit has so far > produced, and insofar as that?s true he?s able to > step back and see the ?big picture?, and only time > will tell if it turns out to be accurate; > certainly I hope these are just teething problems, > though I think their more akin to having wisdom > teeth yanked without anaesthetic and not a vague > promise of painkillers and antibiotics afterwards. > It?s very easy to be as sanguine as he is when you > don?t currently have skin in the game, and I hope > he recognises that. > > Certainly the vaccine roll-out has been superb so > far and it turns out Kate Bingham was up to the > job. However I don?t think anyone could be > criticised for thinking this was another story > crony appointment; certainly Dido Harding and > others could take lessons because T+T has been an > unmitigated F-up and the amount we spent on PPE > last year was criminal. > > Perhaps the vaccine is an example of things are > going to be. I hope so. It?s what we were > promised. But already we?ve got Brexiters > reverting to blaming the EU for things we knew > would happen (see Lance Forman) and govt blaming > the fishing community for not filling out forms > properly when it was Boris and Frost who openly > sold them out. > > It hasn?t started as badly as it could?ve, but > let?s not pretend it?s gone as well as was > promised. Let?s hope these problems will get > solved quickly. But it?s already starting to look > like we went for a barebones thin gruel of a > meal-deal just to get it over the line and claim > victory. Not the greatest of starts, and as I say, > very easy for those not exposed to the problems to > claim it?s no big deal. > > It?s a huge deal for people watching their > business crumble in front of them. I don't agree with everything here, but overall I think thats a reasonable comment J.a...and one that at least suggests that some reasonable discussion may be possible. Of course I'm sympathetic to business owners (like seabag) who are at the pointy end of transition. And to those who casually view any support for brexit as callous dismissal of these types of businesses, I don't feel is accurate. I truly hope that some of the issue encountered over 3 weeks resolve themselves to an acceptable degree. But also, everyone needs to grow up a little - every major decision that affects the economy will have relative winners and relative losers....no matter what had happened in 2016, there would always be some portion of the economy we could point to as suffering more than others. I know that is cold comfort, for those going through this disruption in the near term...but perhaps in 6 months when domestic demand is far exceeding consumption in Europe (which is still locked-down as vaccinations lag), we might be talking about different relative winners and receive losers....and some who are feeling the pinch now, might be feeling benefits then and vice versa....

Sephiroth Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > It's not YOUR brexit arguments. You just happen to > present yourself as some kind of "reasonable" face > of an impossible project > > At least racists like () have their twisted > reasons - but you.. actually.. believe.. in... > sunlit.. uplands > Blimey Sephiroth. Now even 'the racists' are better than people trying to be reasonable'. Honestly, take a step back. Take a breath. And have a think about what you're saying.