Blah Blah

Nope Trinny. It doesn't work like that. Parts comes from all over the EU and Nissan has made it clear that a no deal Brexit changes its position. Car sales in the UK alone would not make up for the shortfall either. Walking away from a market of hundreds of millions is just lunacy.

Also worth pointing out Alan that CETA does not include services and requires the opening up of the Canadian public sector to tender from EU countries. The latter is something leave advocates on both left and right of the spectrum had an issue with.

Uncleglen typifies the leave narrative and the ignorance and denial it is based on. That is why he resorts to insult so easily. Teade deals are always a negotiation with give and take on BOTH sides. This will be as true with the USA as it is with the EU. Why would we compromise our car manufacturing sector for example, a huge part of our exports for a tiny sector like fishing? The same could be said of the city (and actually, it is the city that will be used as leverage on fishing in my opinion). Uncleglen doesn't understand these nuances. If we want continued access to EU markets with the things that are worth most to our economy, there will have to be compromises made elsewhere. The leave campaign, by nailing their masts to fishing, have essentially shot themselves in the foot. And just another little fact. The USA is our biggest trading partner outside of the EU but we enjoy an $18 billion trading deficit with them. But wait? That is more than our membership of the EU! THAT is why the leave side never wanted to focus on the economics of existing trade. It was never an argument they could win. That will be the first thing a protectionist Trump will address in any trade negotiations. So we already will see a negative impact to our positive trade deficits just in doing that external deal.

And note the absence of leavers here, to discuss the details of those trade talks. One could be forgiven for thinking they don't care really. As long as their side is winning, the method doesn't bother them.

This is Trump style of working against scrutiny by a free press and totally unacceptable.

Australia is also only a market of 27 million people. What happened to the 40 trade deals that were ready to go the second after Brexit? The truth is that we have hundreds of trade agreements through the EU, all of which will have to be renegotiated. The very idea that we can replace tariff free access to a market of five hundred million consumers on our doorstep with a trade deal somewhere else is for the birds. The single market is the ONLY trading block that has tariff free trade on ALL goods and services. CETA by comparison, only includes 80 percent of food products for one and doesn't include services. Canada also had to agree to open up her public sector to tender from EU companies. So any trade deal with the EU is never going to deliver full divergence, because trade deals just do not work like that. Leave supporters however have never wanted to hear the truth on that stuff and this is where I think Boris will face trouble, both from the hard Brexit ideologues within his own party and from that section of the public that don't understand how trade deals actually work.

We will have to wait and see. At heart, I think Boris definitely wants a trade deal, understands the importance of that. But the same issues remain over the Irish border and for all of Boris's tough talk, there will have to be concessions. The Canada deal doesn't include services so asking for a Canada style deal isn't as straight forward as it sounds.

Well it all boils down to the inability or unwillingness to look at and discuss details from leavers isn't it? Citylover seems not to understand that only 13 per cent of UK law is impacted by EU directives and that WE were very influential in shaping those directives. Yes that is right. The governments that WE elected to act on our behalf over the decades. I am willing to bet that Citylover won't be able to cite a single piece of legislation that negatively impacts him/ her either. Citylover, who seems to think Brussels dictates and yet won't be able to explain how we got exemptions written into Maastricht that mean members don't have to join the Euro or be part of Schengen. Such ignorance should be called out and in fact, the reason why some leavers resort to insults and calling the other side scum is precisely because they understand so little that they can not engage in any kind of meaningful debate. Far easier to bully instead.

Oh dear Citylover. The irony that pervades your post proves my point exactly. It was not the remain protestors on Friday that were aggressively shouting 'scum' at the other side. In fact, it has never been. All the vitriol and bile has come from the leave side, exploited by the far right and various drunken hooligan types. It is a matter of fact that the referendum was 'advisory' in legal terms. There is no twisting of anything there. Go and read the Referendum Bill legislation. The issue has always been political expediency, Tory Party expediency. And if you think a third of the electorate (a quarter of the population) forcing anything is good for democracy then think again. That you so flippantly dismiss the rise in racist, antisemitic and homophobic hate crimes, some of them violent is a display of just why bullies and thugs feel emboldened. You are part of the problem and the backlash will be significant if your Brexit is anything but a roaring success for everyone.

Agreed. As the true consequences of leaving become apparent, it will only be a question of time before the calls grow to reverse something. In many ways, nothing will change. Immigration is mostly driven by economic drivers. That won't change. We are still signed up to various UN conventions that legislate on all sorts of things from refugees to human rights. That won't change. We are still a part of NATO. That won't change. We are still subject to the European Court of Human Rights because we are still a member of the Council of Europe. That won't change. And we still remain part of the European Broadcasting Union and will still be major contributors to Eurovision! That won't change either. So what will change? We will adopt many existing directives into UK law but the things that big business sees as a barrier to increased profits are what are most at risk. That means workers protections (paid maternity leave is already rumoured to be going). It might mean lowering food standards. It definitely means giving full control to the very people who are really responsible for the type of economy we have, those that we elect into government (Welsh farmers will be ?120 million worse off under the government funding announced to replace EU subsidies). Poorer regions that benefited from EU funding will see a shortfall also and indeed, Javid has already told all government departments that they need to make cuts of 5% to their budgets. So much for the end to austerity and a return to investment. The truth is that Brexit is and always was ideological. The victory for Brexiters is a symbolic one. The reality is and always has been in the detail that no-one wants to discuss. That reality is going to become very apparent during the transition period as the nuts and bolts of trade finally come into the spotlight. We are no longer a big player and negotiating trade agreements with big players is always complicated and requires concession and regulatory alignment. The very thing that Brexiters say we left the EU to escape. On immigration, we will still import the skills and labour that we need. Yes the process will be different in part but the end result will be the same. Only now, we have a nation where racists, xenophobes and other bigots feel emboldened. Hate crime is up and I am ashamed that the UK has gone backwards in this respect. But at the same time, I feel confident that a more outward looking part of the population will bring us back to a place of sanity in time. Brexit is a con trick, played by wealthy people acting out of self interest. It is only a question of when, not if, those who voted for it, finally see that.

dbboy Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Can't you accept the democratic decision made by > the people in 2016. Can't you accept that people still have the right to campaign for things they believe in?

pk Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > writing our own rules is all very well, until we > want to do trade deals with other countries with > their own (different) rules - something will have > to give and I guess that the country under more > pressure to do a deal will be the one making most > of the concessions And this is precisely why there is no such thing as a free trade deal. The all come with negotiated conditions, not just in terms of which good and services are part of the deal, but also the regulations that made in alignment. This is also why they take so long to negotiate, and yes, the bigger market always has the advantage.

Sephiroth Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > What do we think will happen when Johnson requests > the 2 year extension? I thought he is unable to do that? Doesn't his Brexit Bill tie us to the end of transition date he has set?

Food standards are not minor matters Stepdown. All kinds of things are used in food and cosmetic production in the US that are banned in the EU. Formaldehyde is one such toxic ingredient. Parabens are another. On food directly, Potassium Bromate and Azodicarbonamide are banned in the EU because they are thought to cause cancer. They are used in baked goods in the US though. Brominated Vegetable Oil is another permitted ingredient in the US but is banned in the EU because it deposits bromine in the body which can damage memory and the nervous system. There is a long list of carcinogenic toxins that the US allows to be used.

The other thing to remember with Spanish Flu is that it happened at a time when there were no vaccines or antibiotics. Also, in the aftermath of a war, there is malnutrition and immune systems are weakened beyond where they would be. Today we live in an entirely different world. There are experts constantly scanning for signs of new viruses and the response is always swift and effective. The mortality rate from coronavirus so far appears to be around the 2-3% mark. To put that into context, seasonal flu has a mortality rate of around or less than 1%. The other thing to consider also is that the pneumonia component of these flu viruses is what generally causes death in vulnerable groups. But even in a healthy person, a period of pneumonia can take many months to fully recover from, leaving the immune system compromised. This is why follow up mutations tend to be more deadly if a large number of people have already been infected with the first mutation. And it goes without saying that suddenly large numbers of people presenting with pneumonia puts medical services under server pressure as they all need treatment. Hence why the Chinese are building pop up hospitals in the outbreak area.

Yep, arrogance indeed. I was right to point to the ignorance on display from DF. That is not merely opinion, it is there for everyone to see for themselves. As for worry, leave voters are not an island. If the economy struggles we ALL suffer. If worker protections are removed, we ALL suffer. If we let ignorance reign, we ALL suffer. But not the millionaires who conned people into voting for Brexit of course. They will continue as before.

Dulwich Fox wrote 'But why do we have to pay ?Billions to have them inforced.' We don't pay ?11 billion for that. We pay it so that UK businesses can have tariff free trade with 500 million consumers, tariffs that would cost ?40 billion outside of the EU with no trade deal. So once again you show how little you really understand.

DulwichFox Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > As I said there are over 4,200 of them. > I do not know what those laws are or how they > affect us .... and that's the problem And there you have it folks. The admission that DF didn't know what he was voting for. A simple bit of research is all it takes DF to educate yourself on EU directives. If you had done that, you would know that most EU law relates to trade, and environmental protections, Health and Safety etc. This is also precisely why you can not answer any question that demands you show an understanding of detail. It is also why you make stuff up,. like the EU telling us to sell houses to foreigners - quite ridiculous. And the worst part of it is, that ignorant people like you are prepared to risk the future economy of the UK and livelihoods of who knows how many people for that ignorance. Totally selfish.

We can use any passport that is valid irregardless of the colour of the cover. Do you really think those who have recently renewed their passports are going to have to change them because the cover is red?

Sephiroth Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > You might not like what I say or the way I say it > - but I promise you I'm not trying to score > points > > But nor can I just watch anyone (in this case it's > Foxy - repeatedly) just post a load of objectively > false nonsense and let it lie - it's bad enough > this is happening. It's worse still that the same > nonsense gets repeated out of the blue like this This. It is a public forum. If someone repeatedly posts stuff that isn't true, others have the right to repeatedly push back. No-one is forced to read it, and yes it can be exhausting. But that is the nature of the beast. I think it also typifies why this nation is now going to be vehemently divided for some time to come.

...

Stop deflecting DF. Answer the question.

But you still have not told us what Brussels tells us to do. And it seems from your posts that the only concern you have is around immigration, because that is all you talk about. And edited to add that under EU regulations, we have ALWAYS had the power to send anyone back to their EU country if they did not find work after three months. But Farage never told you that.

Spot on Exdulwicher. Brexit is an ideology. It is not based in detail or fact or reason. DF, you ask us to wonder why our economy is failing. How about we start with the cost of Brexit so far? It has cost us more then the entire 40 years of membership fees we have paid, over the last three years, and we haven't even left yet! Not sure either why you think the EU are responsible for any economic failure. The world has changed, was changing when we joined the EEC. Britain was already in decline in the light of post war competition from emerging economies in the far east and Asia and that will continue to be the case outside of the EU. And it is not the EU that sets the rules on property ownership either, but individual governments. So not sure where you get that nonsense from.

Brexit was never about the truth and detail. It is ideological. And as with all ideologies, all reason goes out of the window.