Ganapati

Darcy--yes Fiona Foster is the teacher! She has a class on Friday's at Nunhead's St Silas with St. Anthony's church. She is excellent.

I'm sure Fuzzyboots, that Sing and Sign will be just fine. And yes, there is NOTHING wrong with going to these classes to meet other mums, and not just for the sake of "advancing" baby's learning. As for kids picking up cues from their parents...sure, why not...but at the ballet class my daughter attends every single parent there is raptly watching their child, and NO ONE talks on their phone, or files their nails, or talks to their neighbour, if anything, it all seems like we're *too* focused on the kids. But still, there are kids in the class who get bored...what a shock for 3-4 year olds! > > My daughter goes to ballet and it's clear that > some of them are better concentraters than others. > Many of the children I've observed pick up the > cues/behaviour from their parents too. If thee > adult is interested in the proceedings, then the > child is more likely to pay attention too. If > however, the parent spends the entire time during > the class fiddling with a mobile phone, or > nattering to his/her neighbour, then the child > tends not to make the most of the teaching > opportunity, either. > > At the risk of sounding school-marmish, you get > out what you put in. If the parents and teacher > display commitment, enjoyment and interest then > the kids will pick this up and make the most of > the opportunity.

Pierre--surely you believe though that in "this day and age" people--thanks to technology--have much better access to groups of similarly-minded people, better access to information on how to go about things, as well as a faster, easier means of distribution? I think this holds true for "innocent" hobbies as well as the more deviant. Human nature itself is probably no better, no worse.

I don;t think it's the classes, but the kids. No matter what "organised" activity you do with an under-three I guarantee you it's not going to hold their attention span. And why should it? 45 minutes is a long time for under-threes. Most "experts" say its far better to let them run around like headless chickens and do what they will. I think the classes are really more for parents to have somewhere to go/people to see, lest you go mad. The only class I've found worth it has been a ballet class where the teacher has been really good about making it fun and playful. It's only 30 minutes, but you can still see some of the kids (3-4) getting wriggly and losing interest.

Pierre--I should have said WOMEN probably don't feel comfortable confronting a man. I certainly don't. Maybe as a bloke, you don't feel vulnerable, but if you're a woman and certainly if you have your very young children with you, you're going to think twice about confronting someone about what they are doing. Look at that poor woman who was shoved onto the railway lines for asking two men not to smoke! I was on the train the other day when a short guy accused a tall man of deliberately pushing by him, because and I paraphrase here, "you think you can get away with it because you're tall." Who knows who you're going to set off?

Loz, seriously, give it up. You're bending over backward so far to make a point you're going to get whiplash. The fact is if you saw someone surreptitiously filming you, you could do something about it as Pierre suggested--namely ask the person what he was up to. Just because people object to having their children filmed or having their photo taken by someone unknown to them does not make them part of some Daily Mail brigade. Frankly I think most people would not be happy to discover some stranger had been secretly taking their photo, or their partner's photo, never mind their children's. Pierre, people probably don't confront because not everyone is comfortable doing that, or perhaps they think, hey maybe I'm imagining things. As for moderately famous people--there's at least a reason why people would film them/take their photo. And yes, I know this is a tiresome argument, but honestly, wait until you have a kid, and you will see why parents have reacted the way they have to this thread. I for one am grateful jimbo posted this information. Given that at least three other people have had similar experiences at different settings I don't think its alarmist to be concerned.

Loz, you haven't answered the question--how would you feel if you caught a bloke surreptitously filming you?

Loz, Pierre and others who believe the filming is harmless--how would you feel if you caught a stranger surreptitiously filming *you*? It's bizarre behaviour period.

You really think he would have made reference to a man's figure?

Nero--I completely agree with you on litter, but the tone of your post is really quite annoyingly misogynistic. What has this woman's figure got to do with littering? So women can't enjoy a candy bar without having to worry that she's going to blimp out and therefore offend some passing male's delicate eyes? If this had been a man, there would have been no mention of "ditching the snacks, luv."

spangles--you've clearly misunderstood me. But never mind, it's pointless to try to make you see why its offensive to single out Eastern Europeans as the "sullen" ones.

BigJim--I would consider sharing a nanny with another family. True, daycares are usually cheaper, but if you can squeeze the extra cash--especially feasible with a nanny share--there are a lot of benefits to them. Aside from small babies benefitting from one on one (or smaller ratio) care, having a nanny come to your house can take the stress out of the morning of getting the baby ready and off to nursery, or if you're running late etc. Plus, you get a little bit more control/flexibility over what they eat, what activities they do, etc--for instance, the nanny can take them to learn swimming at peckham pulse, not something you can do in daycare. If you find a nanny whom your family really clicks with, its great as your child has another person they learn to trust/care for. We've been lucky in that regard. Split with another family, nanny pay can be as competitive as some of the nurseries in ed. The tricky part of course is finding that person, and managing that person, and if you opt for a nanny share, maintaining your relationship with the other family and working out the ins and outs of the share. The best advice there is to find a family with a similar aged baby so your baby will have a companion and the two children can amuse one another, keep everything up front, air all concerns before they become issues, and even consider a contract with the other family so there are no surprises. I've had good luck with Simply Child Care. Good luck, it's one of the hardest decisions you can make with no obvious or easy answers, and congrats on the baby.

> a few sullen faced, possibly Eastern Euopean au pairs, Nice to know prejudice is alive and well in ED. And there everyone was complaining how things had gotten so ferociously pc.

Never mind the service, the food there is awful. I haven't been there in a year.

In the last few weeks, I've had several people knocking on the door claiming they were there to read the meter. I let the first one in, and he indeed, read the meter. A second turned up two days after him, and a third about a week later. Another knocked on the door yesterday. Are these people legitimate? Why so many? Anyone else experiencing this? I've not let anyone in after the first.

I think the problem is that they don't separate the coffee (lattes/cappucino) making from the order taking. Hence you are waiting until everybody's coffees are getting made just to place an order. The cooking time is not that bad. They should just separate ordering from coffee making like they do at the dreaded chains--which obviously know a thing or two about quick turnover.

Thanks everyone!

Hi the yard--that's what we've been finding. No one seems to know about Bellenden. It looks good on paper, but it would be really nice to have some "real life" experience.

Hi--does anyone have any feedback about Bellenden Primary? Thanks.

-- moved topic --

To the lounge! And I am regretting having started this thread. SORRY to all the nice ED mums--as I said some clever person needs to start another child-friendly cafe so we breeding types can branch out.

Grabot-I think you're right. Ok, maybe I am over generalising about ED mums, and perhaps it's the cafe environment that's to blame--too many people with kids with only ONE real place to go in ED. Maybe some clever person will open another equally child-friendly cafe so all of us jostling to get into PRC can have more breathing room. I often wonder why the owner doesn't ban pushchairs that are not in use from the cafe. There's certainly enough parking space outside, plus with all the windows easy enough to keep an eye on them.

I can see why we are becoming a despised species. Had a horrible exchange with some sharp elbowed mummy at Peckham Rye Cafe in which she asked me to take my baby out of the high chair so she could use it. When I objected (I was alone with toddler and baby) that my baby was still eating, she huffed off to harass someone else. I looked at her perplexed when she sat near us, and she said, You needn't look so horrified, mothers usually look out for one another. I'm beginning to think all the people on this board bleating about selfish ED mothers are right.

I'm not impressed with them. I've tried them out a couple of times mostly for cakes and coffee. Obviously coffee for them is an afterthought, as twice it was lukewarm. The cakes were middling at best. I don't go there anymore--much prefer the peckham rye park cafe. Can be a little nutty with all the kids though.

Back to Raisin...do think some of you are being a little unfair to it. Sure, it was wedged in a parade of shops that isn't the fanciest, but it was also right near Goose Green Park, so I'll bet the owner was thinking she'd get the foot traffic from the park. Plus, Northcross road wasn't always the happening strip it is now, so someone had to take the leap and open the first shop that seemed out of place at the time--maybe that's what the Raisin owner was thinking. I think I remember her saying the rents on that strip were more reasonable than Northcross/Lordship lane. Regarding Oranges and Lemons--they've just opened, so we'll see if they can stick it out what with all the baby shops ED now has. I still think Raisin's clothes weren't exactly right for this area--not saying there was no audience at all for it, but their clothes were definitely not the sort you'd find in say Snapdragon, or that other baby store on Northcross Rd. Finally--maybe you caught the owner on a bad day. I went in a few times, and she was always very helpful to me.