jackangel

macroban, your local history bits are always interesting. Perhaps this is a good place to remind people about the Godfrey reproduction OS maps. Notably the ones for East Dulwich & Peckham Rye (London Sheet 117) for 1868 and 1894. They have loads of detail, are to the same scale and are fascinating for anyone living in the area. Better still, they are dirt cheap (?2.20 each?) and available from libraries. The company (look it up and order on the web) will deliver direct very quickly for 60P extra.

When it was safe once again to do so, people filed past the boarded-up shop fronts pointing out to each other any damage done by the previous night?s raids. Some went into the improvised caf? with its incongruous rescued leather suite and shared the communal newspapers peered at in the dim light. Scant news, mostly obvious propaganda. Empty cans clanked in fibre shopping bags, which bore their stains and odours, on the way to be melted down for, perhaps, a new battleship. At home, waste was minimalised. Turn that light out! Do not make unnecessary journeys! An orderly british queue formed at the butcher?s, while the purveyor of foreign preserved meats and conserves across the road was also forced to charge premium prices (when there was the stock). Pursed lipped housewives stood in the fishmonger?s, eye-to-eye with strange species, wondering how they would go down at the family dinner table. In a side street, household possessions and home-made products were offered for sale by an assortment of people ranging from the disadvantaged, through the exploitative, to the well-to-do person doing their Bit for The Cause. Of course, there were beer houses every few yards. Some things never change! Second World War? Nah, another Saturday morning in Lordship Lane.

The roundabout looks really good today. Whoever maintains it is talented and deserves thanks. If we have to despoil it, perhaps we could have a circular pissoir there to replace the Gents behind the tree on Goose Green. The pissoir would have no top or bottom so that those out of ED uniform (Cargo shorts and Birkenstocks) could be easily identified and pelted by outsitters at the EDT whilst otherwise occupied.

Thanks H. Looks like only we two have a curious interest in domestic electrocution. Er . . . did I mention that the electrician found a Cloth Bag in the cellar. Under the sleeping Lost Cat in the Cloth Bag was a Dogs on Leash Petition, on the reverse of which was a map showing the proposed locations in LL of M&S, a New Coffee Bar and Liddle?

Really, really sorry the following may appear so boring, but there are possibly huge safety implications. Someone I know has a 100+ year old house in the area. Recently, having got an electrician in to do some work on a fault in the kitchen wiring, the earth into the house was discovered to be very dodgy. Plumbing, central heating and the casings of big appliances are all earthed so that in the event of a wiring fault the current will ?run to earth? and trip out at the consumer unit rather than run through a person. With a dodgy earth, the person could share the current with possibly unfortunate results. The kitchen wiring fault was repaired and an EDF engineer was called in. He confirmed the earth dodginess and insisted on turning off the power supply at the consumer unit for safety before he left. Cutting a very involved story short, eventually the power company dug up the pavement and re-made the earth to the incoming service sheath. These engineers reckoned that the earth may never have been very good (or even existed!) on the electrical supply sheathing since the water pipes and gas pipes in the past were always metal and this provided convenient good earthing. Only the one house that reported the fault was treated by the engineers! The house has a plastic incoming water pipe. The gas pipes are metal into the house, but inside (amazingly) there is a plastic tube which runs out under the street, invisible to the householder. Any effective earthing for the house from these two services has gone because of the modern use of plastics. There was no indication that anything was wrong. But when the kitchen wiring fault happened, the electrician found all metal surfaces in the house were live! It is unknown how long the wiring fault had existed or how the occupants had escaped electric shocks. Much of this area must have been converted to plastic pipe gas and water supply. Can anyone with technical knowledge shed some light on this phenomenon? Is it a real concern? Is there an easy way to check if our home is affected?

The term ?responsible dog owner? is an odd one because those self-labelling people seem to be very vocal in claiming no responsibility whatsoever for any dog related problems. Such dogmatism appears as arrogance when the disadvantages of dog ownership are shared by the long-suffering community at large. I can walk across the grass of Goose Green staring at the ground, or I can admire the trees and look at what is going on around me ? and tread dog poo back into the flat. Daily on the Green, dogs can be seen ?worrying? people (nothing classed as serious). I love the age-old dictatorship?s argument form that says if you don?t want to be bothered by dogs, don?t go up the park! It?s a classic. (Will be appearing again in a discussion near you!). This has been a useful thread to me in making up my mind about the proposed regulation. I started out instinctively against it, but now see how the entrenched views of some dog owners remain unresponsive to the feelings of others. I shall continue to read views on the forum but, at the moment, I cannot sign the petition.

As in any other ?community? (from cyclists to Tonka toy drivers) there are both irresponsible and model members within dog owners. There are, however, a great many gradations in between. In reality, we probably all slip in and out of several different gradations in our own chosen activity ? that?s a human characteristic. Dogs poo, on or off the lead. Many owners, possibly most of the time, clear it up. But there is still quite a lot of it about. Fox, pigeon and cat poo, vomit, spilled food and chewing gum (to name a few) can also be a nuisance, but they do not seem to be as obvious or prevalent as dog poo in some public spaces. I can?t see a dogs on leash regulation changing this. There is clearly a fear of dogs; whatever the actual attack statistics, the fear part is real. Attacks can be reported to the police or wardens (good luck!), but imagine reporting a dog slobbering in your baby?s face in its pram, or the panic felt by some people when small dogs run at them barking and snapping ? are you some kinda weirdo? A dogs on leash regulation might change this. Many people gain great pleasure/benefit from their animals. Keeping dogs is one of the oldest human habits, and the point previously made about dog walkers adding to the safety of quiet areas is a good one. But I worry when dog owners do not seem to possess the imagination to understand other people?s feelings or the (albeit ??very unlikely/nearly impossible?) potential for harm to others. Absolute confidence in the future actions of an animal seems misplaced when we look at our everyday experience of living things. I haven?t yet decided whether to sign up to the petition. If we attempt to solve every difficulty of coexistence with special and selective rules instead of insisting that existing established law is enforced, then we will be driven further and further apart.

So that's all right then.

I accept what all_star and beatnik say - but have obviously not expressed myself well because I cannot understand Huguenot?s interpretation of what I wrote. Keef, I thought you got it with your first comment and was hoping for others to give Fuschia some encouragement about the nature and future of the forum. A couple of postings here really illustrate my point. Can anybody else see what?s happening?

Guidelines are a really good idea and those suggested seem sensible. Search for similar topic ? what, and then not post? Topics may be similar but dealt with differently. Hopefully the forum will keep expanding and new users will probably want to discuss certain common themes; things that affect them. It is tedious to have old users say ?done that? (as if some sort of conclusion has been agreed by all). Surely a forum is a place for people to air their views (within etiquette bounds), including their feelings about real issues - even if those views may not be new to some of us (come on, what is new anyway?). Also applies to resurrecting very old topics. Grammar and spelling ? OK . . . but with lots of flexibility. As a newcomer to the forum, I appreciate that there will be opinions in threads here that I do not agree with or am not interested in spending too much time reading. But some of the things that irritate me are: the cliquey moments when users who obviously know each other use the forum to slap each other on the back, a prevailing blandness intruding into many threads that interrupts good debate/exchange of info/humour, those users who post about almost everything, seemingly almost non-stop, users who have nothing to say, but say it anyway, very regularly, users who, by sheer persistence of postings, attempt to establish a ?presence? on the forum, and are dismissive of those posters with whom they do not agree. It is difficult to see how these particular irritations may be formalised into preventative rules ? so perhaps we just have to put up with it.

Sadly, have to agree with most points here. Clockhouse used to be a bit of a haven for the odd drink and/or pubby meal. Exchanged few words with original landlords (missus a bit scary!), but service was good, food reasonably priced and very efficiently served. No attempt at having to feign being a "saaf lundun boozer". No stripped surface clatter, no kids in your face if you didn't want. Since they left, I have been disappointed every time I've been. Everybody seems very nice, but the bar staff are not on top of the job sometimes, and I agree about the food. Location, size, real ale - how can it go so wrong?

Thank goodness for all those postings on this thread that contained humour, imagination, grass roots reaction, information or fun. But didn't the postings from Wannerbee PISAGs stand out! To all free spirits out there - don't let the WPISAGs grind you down.

So, the ?Dulwich Community Council has made an award to provide a new centrepiece for the roundabout? (at Goose Green). Contact [email protected] for info. yes/no response sheets have been circulated (?) seeking views about the centrepiece: 1. A Tree. (Trees are nice. And there aren?t any around for . . . well . . . metres) 2. A Signpost. (Signposts are nice. They point to Camberwell and Peckham and places, like those on real road signs) 3. A Lantern. (Lanterns are nice. And, at night, it could illuminate . . . er . . . itself) 3a* Flowers planted by the Parks Dept. (Don?t they look after the roundabout anyway?) 3b* A Fountain. (Drowned football fans every morning after an England defeat . . . hmm, there?s a certain appeal. Ah no! - it would not be provided by a fountain expert, it would become a number 4) 4. An Art Installation. (Art is nice, isn?t it? But there are some genuine concerns for creators and consumers.) Public art has three audience groups (LDI), those who Like it, those who Dislike it, and those who are largely Indifferent (but may be steered into saying it?s good/clever/colourful/worthwhile/useless/eyesore/waste of money/etc by the other two groups). Any Art Installation in a public area, where people cannot choose whether or not to view it, will invariably be an irritant to some, possibly many. Maybe we don?t care. Unlike Fast Food, Art has a good press. It is assumed to be inherently ?good?. Once particular individuals/small authoritarian groups (PISAGs) initiate the idea that there should be ?art? in a certain place, the genie can never be fully re-corked. PISAGs decide who should create the art. They have a congenital belief that they know best. ED and its environs are stuffed with artists, craftspeople, designers, inventors and creatives ? yet PISAGs ignore them for the favoured or famous. Residents and others who have to ?face the art? on a daily basis have no special consideration. Consultation = notice to proceed. Look at the borders of SE15/SE22 where bollards were commissioned from Rhodes and Gormley. A gift of a brief ? constrained dimensions and materials for a single practical function ? which resulted in expensive, worse-for-wear, embarrassing street clutter. Who decided this should be public art? Who chose the artists? Why weren?t residents asked if they wanted this art? Dunno. Munygon. Computersayno. Imagine canvassing views at the EDT (because it overlooks the roundabout) at about 10.30 pm, after a long hot Saturday of loosening aesthetic inhibitions. A sudden landslide of opinion may well result in, say, a full-size study of Mr Stay Puft (Ghost Busters 1984) being installed on the roundabout. It would be legitimate because it would satisfy the LDI principle . . . but you know (you do know, don?t you?) the PISAGs wouldn?t stand for it. What to do? * I made up 3a and 3b

Keef, sounds like one of the proper courses that should still be going. Perhaps you'd like to start a thread about VI in this area?

That's really interesting Keef. Which qualification do you have - the old RNIB or the Sense Mobility and Orientation for qualified teachers for the Visually Impaired?

Incitatus, sorry to rattle your cage. We are talking about the single brass studs that are placed some distance apart forming (apparently) a line or boundary - not the blistering used for VI. Suggest you read more carefully - English Heritage, DFT, Forum postings, etc, etc, etc. Spadetownboy, if you're right, I'll be down there tonight with my thing for getting stones out of horses hooves (or gold out of pavements).

Feel I'm being a bit boring about this, but these metal studs are not taught as standard to the visually impaired - other pavement "bobbles" are (found in "slabs", showing direction of curbs for crossing roads). Incaitatus, is there some really hot new technology (of which the majority of VI people are unaware)? Please explain how it works.

Walworth Road, major road artery from the SE into London. Southwark have decided to widen the pavements for impending invasion of people to the crap shops in Walworth Road and to restrict/confound traffic flow long term. (Read the explanatory signs at the side of the road - they don't mention the crap shops though). Grove Vale, major route for hospital vehicles. Southwark has narrowed the road. Look out for Southwark's plans for the road between Goose Green and Dulwich Library! You think bus journeys are long now!

Assume they're for property markings. Unkle_Paulie, no, not tactile - not standard for visually impaired people (unless they are carrying metal detectors)

Mightyroar, Get in touch with Ursula Allison. [email protected]

OK, so we're all agreed, then. Bromide in the water system it is.

Diversity is of benefit to ecosystems - but when one species begins to dominate, the whole system may become unstable. The Pallid Parentum Importantisme (Triwheelus Thrustus), regularly seen on a Saturday morning fouling the pavements of Lordship Lane or being chased out of shops by broom wielding assistants in Northcross Road, is a species in point. Possibly damaged during the reproduction process, this mutation typically displays a lack of awareness of its surroundings and its young offspring are largely abandoned in the wild, relying on other breeds to rejoin them with the parent. The species is attracted by glistening objects ? particularly small rectangular shiny pieces of plastic which they cleverly use as tools to introduce redundant goods and services and inflate prices in their environment. As their numbers increase and their shrill cries dominate the landscape, other animals become reluctant to leave their immediate habitats at the weekend. There may be several solutions to this imbalance. The species? natural predator is the Hooded Yobbus (Watchewlookinat). Flocks of these could be caged in the old Walsh Glazing building and let out at times of infestation. However, they otherwise do not seem to thrive naturally in ED conditions. Alternatively, culling or relocation may be considered. Herds of the species could be lured into Caf? Nerd just before it is boarded up by Southwark Planning. Any survivors could be relocated around the northern end of Rye Lane, an ecosystem that has great need of them. Any other solutions?