Job reference: What to do?

[Seabag]

This year in the New year we let one of our team go. He was a contractor and had been with us for around 18 months. I liked him, but I grew tired of man managing him to see if I could motivate some creative and positive contributions from him. But he was a lost cause, and I discovered he had some form in getting to much the same place in other jobs he 'really wanted to do'

And sadly it was effecting other members of the team to the point of detriment to the business. To top it all he took 3 weeks out without first talking through the timings with us. But we coped and as always found a solution that suited us and the team. I also put it down to being a slightly young mid-twenty something, but felt more like a parent in the situation than someone we worked with. It wasn't nice, and we moved on

So, off he went and on we went too. However, after six months silence I get an application for a reference from him. Which took me back a bit. But when I read the job I felt slightly sorry for him, not that the job itself is bad, just that he's a smart and talented guy, doing stuff that he's more than capable of, but which I know he'll end up hating. And that annoys me in part, but it also makes me want to contact him and ask what the f-he's thinking. But if he won't or can't face the hard work it takes to succeed then who am I to tell him what he should/could do.

So, do I give him the reference he needs/wants, or do I write back and say. "He's a talented young man, who if he pulled his stupid negative finger out of his rear, could go a very long way. But given my experience, he'll drag you down and make every bloody stupid dumb arse excuse NOT TO DO THE JOB IN HAND"

Arghhh ...?

What to do?

[DulwichFox]

Well in all honesty it does not seem you are any position to do this guy any favours...

DulwichFox

[KidKruger]

You make your bed, you gotta lie in it, innit.

It's uncool to be complicit in hiring of such a dud, laying it on another employer like that.

You can either say the statutory minimum and confirm duration/rank etc (which still may be complicit tho).

Or you can send the true view - and tell the contractor what you have done and why and he needs to stop p!ssing people's time away.

Had something almost identical happen last month, after almost a year, had to call it in and let him go. He was never really in it, just going through the motions of the role, but invoicing impeccably. Shortly before he left I had a note from someone he had applied to for work who's senior I know and told how it would be. Left a nasty taste and wasn't a vengeful action, but had to be done that way.

[KalamityKel]

I'd keep it simple and not commit yourself to negative or positive points and keep it open for further discussion if necessary. You could focus in on key points about the role they're applying for where strengths may be identifiable. An intelligent employer will see where key responses are missing.

A "lacks concentration at times" or "can find it difficult to follow instructions" can help.

I think it unfair to give negative feedback in this instance. This chap may be completely different elsewhere. Of course that being said he may be a lot worse and others are right to think it unfair for another employer, but unless you know the people he's moving on to I wouldn't get involved.

I've had many good and bad ones come and go. It's always difficult to know which is the best type of reference to give. I tend to go with the thought that if you don't have anything good to say... say not a lot.

[Seabag]

Thing is, when he first started he was good and willing to learn. Our business is physical in parts and some roles are harder than others....

Oh what the fekk, why am I sticking up for him?

Maybe because at 25 I fekked up a few things, but it did me the world of good in many ways, looking back at it. But then, oh boy I was in cloud cuckoo land.

I'll suggest that my reference will not possibly get him the job he's after, but I'm happy to write it should he wish

[Jules-and-Boo]

A contractor should be there to do a specific thing - should have the skillset to do it and the mindframe to do it professionally.

[Grok]

Its against employment law to give a bad reference. If you dont have anything good to say then give all you are required to eg he worked for you as W from X to Y, he had Z days sick, he was punctual etc.

Dont interfere in his life, stick to doing that to the Fox.

[uncleglen]

Yes employers do read between the lines and if you stick to what grok said they will know that there is a problem.

[Seabag]

Thanks Grok, I'll bear all that in mind

I'll stick to the bones of it as you outlined and leave it at that

Is the Fox looking for a job? I'm in need of some new team members

[Alan Medic]

If you agree to do it I guess his prospective new employer will write to you with a specific set of questions, one of which might be 'would you employ him again?'. I doubt he has told them you let him go, which I gather you did. Kids do a lot of maturing in their 20's and he may have learned something positive from his experience of working with you and the mistakes he may have made. I don't think you should lie but neither put him down so he has no chance of getting the job.

[Seabag]

Thanks Al

Technically his contract ended on the last day of Dec

I'll be mindful as I said previously, and yes mid-twenties is a big growth period

And I don't dislike him, he's a really decent nice person. Just his work ethic was questionable, but who's hasn't been.

[Jules-and-Boo]

where I work, this is a minefield - we would have to demonstrate that we had clearly defined the expectation of behavior (how you do something and not just what it is that needs doing)and that this had been understood.

It may indeed be that he is young and you like him but he was learning. If you want to go into the detail of that, you would have to think about his contribution to your company in a positive light (as you can't give negative reference). so you could say - 'well suited to leadership style management' rather than 'no self motivation'....

you could say - 'lovely chap to have around, would look forward to working with him again in the future when his professional skills have fully matured'

It sounds reasonable to say that he has potential but you didn't have the resources to develop him, as you are a small company and needed a specific skill set, that he didn't match.

[Earl Aelfheah]

It's not against the law to give a 'bad' reference, but it does have to be factual and therefore should be objectively justifiable. In other words, you should avoid bringing up deficiencies which weren't raised with the individual at the time, addressed and recorded. If you say for example "their time keeping was awful", but you never raised it, or kept any records, you could potentially end up with them suing you for the impact of your reference on their ability to get another job. You would have a hard time proving that the statement was objectively true.

I would keep it simple. Include the basics (what the role was, how long they were there) and say which bits of the job they did well. If you raised specific concerns with him at the time, then it's fair to mention these too.

[JohnL]

Just don't comment on the bad things - people draw their own conclusions.

i.e. give a technical reference but no comment on motivation/suitability.

[JohnL]

Alan Medic Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> If you agree to do it I guess his prospective new

> employer will write to you with a specific set of

> questions, one of which might be 'would you employ

> him again?'. I doubt he has told them you let him

> go, which I gather you did. Kids do a lot of

> maturing in their 20's and he may have learned

> something positive from his experience of working

> with you and the mistakes he may have made. I

> don't think you should lie but neither put him

> down so he has no chance of getting the job.

Thats a horrible question in a reference and I probably wouldn't answer it.

There are many reasons you wouldn't employ someone again - maybe because they left you.

[peckham_ryu]

Don't sweat it too much. The guy's next employer/client has to make their own judgement based on interview etc, and if they have a problem they can get rid. We all know the risks when we take someone on.

I read a really bad reference once: someone from HR had left it on the fax machine. It was about a freelancer - a kid earning ?27 an hour. It said, "Unfortunately we would not use X's services again. We experienced problems with timekeeping?" (it went on a bit). Apart from being totally unprofessional by leaving the document in a place where nosey parkers like me would read it, I thought it was seriously mean of the company to go that far, rather than simply declining to give a reference.

Anyway, whatever you write, do assume the subject will read what you have written. That might not happen - but it can happen, and personally I find that influences what I write.

[Siduhe]

In my industry it's standard to give a "bare facts" reference along the lines of

"Dear Sirs, it is our policy to provide only the following information in response to a request for a reference:

I confirm that X was employed as [position] from [start] to [finish] date and resigned from [name of company] to pursue other opportunities."

So you give a reference but make clear that this is the only information you ever provide (no risk of anyone reading something into it that's not there) and that he/she hasn't lied about their job experience and weren't sacked.

[JohnL]

peckham_ryu Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Don't sweat it too much. The guy's next

> employer/client has to make their own judgement

> based on interview etc, and if they have a problem

> they can get rid. We all know the risks when we

> take someone on.

>

> I read a really bad reference once: someone from

> HR had left it on the fax machine. It was about a

> freelancer - a kid earning ?27 an hour. It said,

> "Unfortunately we would not use X's services

> again. We experienced problems with timekeeping?"

> (it went on a bit). Apart from being totally

> unprofessional by leaving the document in a place

> where nosey parkers like me would read it, I

> thought it was seriously mean of the company to go

> that far, rather than simply declining to give a

> reference.

>

> Anyway, whatever you write, do assume the subject

> will read what you have written. That might not

> happen - but it can happen, and personally I find

> that influences what I write.

The old left on the photocopier/printer/fax (we now make people log

on to the photocopier to print out as it's so unprofessional) :)

Once I worked in a company where somebody 'left' on the photocopier

a list of everyone's salaries - except one person had a salary much

higher than everybody else.

Cue trouble - I'm pretty sure somebody faked it :)

[LondonMix]

I'd say give a bare bones fact reference. I'd save a negative reference for someone you really don't think anyone should ever give a chance to. We would only give an off the record negative references if someone is deranged / sexually harassing people etc.

Everyone, typically has a 3 month probation period so you aren't burdening the company permanently with someone.

I think millennials in general are a bit lazy anyway. They are definitely work shy. Saying someone his age lacks focus and professionalism these days is almost a tautology

[Seabag]

Here's what I've come up with

X worked as a contractor for XXX between date X to date Y

He worked as part of the distributions team

He had X days holiday and X days sick

He was punctual during this period and rarely late

He is communicative in writing & verbally when required to be so

He is well presented and pleasant in his manner

His contract ended in Jan 2016

Thoughts?

[ruffers]

As a bare bones it's fine, and he can use it to confirm his cv is reasonably accurate and not much more.

As I read this thread he has asked you for a reference to pass on, right? (As opposed to given your name to a potential employer to approach you for a reference). So you have a direct channel to him, regardless of references.

At some level you look like you feel you're got some responsibility or potential to help ( too strong a word but there you go ) and you can do some good here, it seems. In a similar situation once I wrote back to someone saying I'd give the kind of reference you wrote if asked, but had an honest conversation with them about why I wouldn't do more to actually recommend them. This was based on the fact I liked them, and wanted to help.

They applied what I told them, got a job, did well, and thanked me a year later.

Not trying to give advice btw, but there some parallels.

[numbers]

I think that's fine seabag, agree entirely with what rahrahrah & others have said above.

I'm all for giving people another chance. They will either thrive in different dynamics/teams and that's all that's needed, or they're not committed to the role wherever they may be. I'd only say something negative if it was well justified. Future employers will quickly be able to gauge which if they're any good.

[Seabag]

I've spent 6 mths rationalising the roll he held, we're a better company for it

Should I have done it 6 mths earlier, yes probably

And we move on

I bear no malice, he'll get the reference in a basic form

I wish him well

Thank-you everybody

End

[I hammer]

AFAIK its illegal to give a bad reference. Therefore simply state facts, I.e.: dates he worked for you and job title.

[Earl Aelfheah]

It's not illegal to give a negative reference, as long as it's factual