Ken Livingstone - antisemitic?

[Otta]

I was assuming the statement Jah posted wad written before the Ken thing blew up.

Whether Livingston is an antisemite or not, there is absolutely no doubt that what he said yesterday was antisemitic.

[Earl Aelfheah]

*Bob* Wrote:

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> Pro-Palestine-Anti-State-Of-Israel has been a

> leftie 'given' for as many years as I can

> remember, but let's be honest, Ken's lost the plot

> on this one.

>

> There might have been some kind of point in there

> (more of a historical footnote than a point I

> suppose) - but the attempt at making it and, worse

> still, trying to turn it into anything of value or

> worth that somehow means something in the current

> debate defies belief.

This ^

[taper]

I think disproportionate criticism of Israel can be a signifier of anti-Semitism. This is well recognised. We hold Israel to higher standards than other nations in the Middle East because it is a liberal democracy and it claims proudly to be one. But at times, this does become disproportionate and the language and tropes used are certainly anti-Semitic.

[Earl Aelfheah]

The question is often asked as to why people focus their criticism disproportionately on Israel, as opposed to say Iran. The answer is exactly as Taper says, that we hold Israel to higher standards, they are supported by Western governments and that it may be possible for Western governments and politicians to influence Israeli policy (as an ally of ours). So yes, it's unbalanced, but I don't think that in itself signifies antisemitism.

[miga]

Is Israel criticised more than Iran? Until the recent rapprochement, Iran was deemed a part of the "Axis of Evil", and deeply criticised both officially and in the press. Even now I don't think you'll find any serious public political person who'll claim Iran is a freer or in any way better state than Israel. On the other hand, Iran is brought into the argument often when Israel is criticised. "You built a massive wall to keep one part of your population from reaching another part of your territory". "Are you saying Iran is any better?".

[JohnL]

I think that although Ken L is probably technically right - it's

one of those issues where being technically right isn't enough.

There are things you just aren't allowed to say as communities will

find it offensive - and he can't seem to see that.

[????]

rahrahrah Wrote:

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> This is another good summary imo:

> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labo

> ur-antisemitism-row-ken-livingstone-naz-shah-jerem

> y-corbyn-a7006176.html

>

> I think Ken should be kicked out of the party

> personally. He's too divisive a figure and his

> bringing Hitler into a rebuttal against

> allegations of antisemitism, is pretty bizarre and

> unhelpful.

>

> That said, there is a lot of mischief making on

> the part of Guido et al. and I don't buy the

> accusation that there is some bigger problem with

> the Labour Party being antisemitic generally.

I think the fact that many in the PLP have spoken out so ferociously against this demonstrates this, generally - in contrast to you know who and his mate - but the general Labour party is not the problem here. The problem is with the extreme bits of it who bizzarley hold the reins of power. Who bought Ken back into the fold? Who describes Galloway as a friend? Who appointed Milne?

Of course Guido etc will make mischief - as bloggers on the left do - they don't have to dig very far to find this sort of stuff though and long mat they contine exposing it in my opinion.

Predictably, they the mainstream Labour people, are getting slagged off by the normal Corbynistas on social media with Blairites/red Tories etc etc for standing up against prejudice, even Owen Jones got the treatment yesterday FFS!

[Jah Lush]

This makes for an interesting read.

How Israel lobby manufactured UK Labour Party?s anti-Semitism crisis.

https://electronicintifada.net/content/how-israel-lobby-manufactured-uk-labour-partys-anti-semitism-crisis/16481

[DaveR]

More horseshit, I'm afraid. Like the way everybody who does not support J Corbyn is described as 'right wing'.

The only allegation of any substance is this:

"There is a large crossover between right-wing, anti-Corbyn Labour and the pro-Israel lobby within the party"

but there's no real evidence to support it.

Because it's horseshit.

[Jah Lush]

Jeez! DaveR your cuntishness is relentless.

[Loz]

Jah Lush Wrote:

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> This makes for an interesting read.

>

> How Israel lobby manufactured UK Labour Party?s anti-Semitism crisis.

That's serious tinfoil hat stuff. Especially the bit about the "right wing" of the Labour party.

I'm a bit torn on this one. Not sure what Livingstone said was directly anti-Semitic, but he was in the midst of defending someone who had been making anti-Semitic comments. And Ken has previous form of dabbling in a bit of anti-Semitism himself.

But I think the decision to suspend him was a furious piece of kneejerk attempted damage control by Labour. I suspect Ken will be back soon.

[Jah Lush]

By and large I pretty much agree with you, Loz.

[miga]

It's certainly taken attention off the Tory Brexit split. Live blogging the Labour "anti-Semitism" crisis. Wonder what this will do for Sadiq Khan's chances.

[miga]

miga Wrote:

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> It's certainly taken attention off the Tory Brexit

> split. Live blogging the Labour "anti-Semitism"

> crisis. Wonder what this will do for Sadiq Khan's

> chances.

Here we are:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/tories-try-to-link-sadiq-khan-to-antisemitism-row-despite-condemnation-a7006261.html

"Have you stopped beating your wife?".

[miga]

.

[titch juicy]

Well worth ten minutes of your time

https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/adam-ramsay/multiple-truths-of-labour-antisemitism-story

[uncleglen]

from the above article, point 16 is NOT helpful, and is a blatant slur and there is no mention of the terrorist actions of Hamas that forced Israel into implementing security measures. Israel is NOT an apartheid state ffs

[Otta]

I agree with uncleglen RE Point 16. Utter bollocks.

[????]

Read Amnesty international (that well known Zionist organisation) reports on Hamas if you want to see what a lovely organisation they are.

[Loz]

Point 11 was rather incorrect, as well. They laughed at Ed M because he failed in bacon sandwich eating, not because he was Jewish, and certainly not because he was a Jew eating bacon.

[intexasatthe moment]

In your opinion Loz .

[Alan Medic]

Anti this anti that. When will we realise what we have in common as humans is greater and more important than our differences. It's like one is right and one is wrong, so pick a side. I do it too. I think the Israeli occupation of Palestine is obnoxious. But am I right or wrong? I don't know. Am I anti Semitic? Fuck no. You believe in a religion is your right however stupid it might be. I'm presumably anti Christian too...?

[Loz]

intexasatthe moment Wrote:

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> In your opinion Loz .

Really? Do you have anything that would suggest there was some more nefarious motive?

[DulwichFox]

I have a signed hardback copy of 'If Voting Changed Anything, They'd Abolish it. ' by Ken Livingstone

Published September 7th 1987

I met him at a book signing in Holborn WHS.

Having been a supporter of livingstone at that that time, I cannot say that meeting the man was that remarkable..

Can't say I have much if not any respect for the man these days... I think he is an idiot.

Not as clever as I once thought he was.

DulwichFox

[????]

and.....BUMP