I heard the news today, oh boy..

[Jah Lush]

LOL>:D

[Fear 'n boozin]

who the hell did they interview for this? Doctors?!?!?!?!

Beeb - We're all well happy with NHS opening hours

[mockney piers]

Teaching union gives practical lesson on the Luddites.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/08/02/teacher_votes/

[mockney piers]

Disturbing reading, apparently Iran could be only 9 years away from 2016

http://www.theonion.com/content/news_briefs/report_iran_less_than_10

[SeanMacGabhann]

Must. Never. Post. From. The. Onion.

i lose too much time!

[Marmora Man]

Jah Lush Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Mockney, my nephew is in Iraq at the moment

> working for a security firm. He was formerly a

> soldier in the Royal Engineers and was involved in

> the the war from the start. Doing two tours. He

> also has experience of training and working

> alongside American soldiers and he has often said

> that they are probably amongst the worse and

> indiciplined bunch of arseholes he has ever come

> across. According to my nephew compared to the

> British Army the American military are "f**king

> useless and trigger happy dickheads." Hence my

> lack of shock or surprise.

You should meet their Navy - frightening!

[mockney piers]

Is there no end to human ingenuity?

http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/secret-facilities/camouflaged-fridge-chills-hides-beer-at-the-office-299435.php

[mockney piers]

Come on Jah, you're clearly not pulling your weight. Beaten by Lulxembourg?!?

From the economist.

[Ant]

Who are 6, 7 and 9? How can they not show the complete top 10? Gah! It's giving me the jitters!

I need a drink...

[mockney piers]

Cos I'm geeky and that, I 've just searched the WHO's databsae for you.

6. British Virgin Islands

7. St Pierre & Miquelon

9. Croatia

[Jah Lush]

Mockney, you know full well I drink my weight in pints, it's the rest of you who are letting the side down.

I think you'll find that Scotland are collectively known as 6, 7 & 9. Surely they'd be right off the scale compared to bloody Luxembourg!!!!

[Brendan]

Did the WHO publish that for some kind of health initiative or is it a challenge? Is there going to be a yearly trophy is what I want to know.

[Keef]

Come on Jah, we'll put it right together! :)-D

Although I agree that we do our bit... Come on the rest of you, lets move to a canal barge and kill ourselves!

[Brendan]

For those considering Foxton?s 0% offer. Look at what you could buy for the price of an ED family home: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7012020.stm

[Jah Lush]

Nah! Bit of a trek to the nearest pub I reckon. And I'm not sure if I could get the papers delivered either.

[Brendan]

Yeah I suppose an evil super-villain hell bent on world domination still needs a convenient local pub.

[mockney piers]

Well, foreign policy speech would always be tricky, but this is jaw dropping

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7012342.stm

This:

'In the Middle East, al-Qaeda was using the "suffering of the Palestinians as an excuse for violence", he added.'

Coming from the party who gave us:

'clear and present threat / WMDs honest / errr he was a bad bloke who killed lots of people / what's that, we've killed a million huh? whoops, still I was right'

that was somewhat rich.

This one's good too

'"That's why Europe can't be a closed Christian club, why a lasting settlement for the people of Kosovo is a defining test for the whole of Europe, and why Turkey should become a full and equal member of the EU."'

Well, firstly it's not, we separated church and state some time ago I believe, and Turkey not getting in has lots to do with a corruption riddled, underperforming economy, an interfering military with a penchant for torture and extra-judicial execution, and armenian-holocaust denial, than with being non-christian.

I always suspected Miliband was a Blair clone idiot, but this is depressing.

and what on earth has:

'He said: "Europe needs to look out, not in, to the problems beyond its borders that define insecurity within our borders.'

got to do with:

'"It doesn't need institutional navel-gazing and that is why the reform treaty abandons fundamental constitutional reform and offers clear protections for national sovereignty.'

The man's a loon!!

[downsouth]

I agree with you on most points but on Turkey I think your analysis is out. Notwithstanding a move to more religious parties (similar to Christian Democrats in Germany and other parts of Europe) Turkey is advancing and developing and has a modern economy. You might want to see Palin's New Europe programme as much of this was highlighted/pretty evident. http://www.bbc.co.uk/palin/about.shtml#2

[mockney piers]

I did and take your points, though they don't necessarily deny mine.

Some economic factors do still fall short including unemployment and debt.

This was frankly true of some of the new members of the rapid expansion into Central Europe over which blind eyes were turned.

Again I don't think this was religious discrimination, but more to do with legacy paranoia about Russian intentions and securing a buffer lest the great bear choose to dominate the region again.

Now the EU creaks as we absorb all their problems, I don't realistically see Turkish entry within the next decade.

And for every Sarkozy and Blair with their religious rhetoric, we have a Zapatero or err... maybe that's about it.

[mockney piers]

I think my main concern was that I'm not sure Miliband even has much understanding of foreign affairs. This was a scattershot speech which had no sense or cohesion.

Depressing. Bring back Robin Cook at least he was clever....hmm...maybe in animatronic form?

[downsouth]

I agree with your assessment of Miliband the much touted rival to Brown and now future favourite for the top job. He does seem to oscillate between views and ideas that often are contradictory of themselves or more suited to a laboratory and not the real world.

In terms of Turkey it has as much right/pedigree to join the EU as the other candidate countries - a point I think you acknowledge in some of those new members who were unsuitably prepared for membership. As you say there was a reason for those countries but again there is for Turkey. The economic advantages and the emphasis on free trade i.e. Europe Lite are compelling propositions. Turkey will , if it does join, provide the engine for growth in the EU for decades to come. it will also bring Turkey and Greece closer together which is as good an outcome as Germany and France being brought together - the rasion d'etre of The Treaty of Rome.

[mockney piers]

I don't think I ever said Turkey shouldn't join, I took umbrage that Miliband was unecessarily implying that there are religious reasons why it shouldn't.

When we are in a world where Bush harps on about crusades and an innocuous cartoon to stirs up such hysteria, this seemed a pretty daft thing to say.

That said the military continue to fight a pretty brutal kurdish suppression, regularly bomb iraq and are even threatening iran; of course if it's good enough for us ;-)

[downsouth]

Without going into a tete a tete, the points where I perceived you to question Turkey's candidacy were "corruption riddled, underperforming economy, an interfering military with a penchant for torture and extra-judicial execution, and armenian-holocaust denial" not its religion and again I think that some of those criticisms bar the last one can be used against a number of the newer entrants - Romania and Bulgaria being perhaps the worst offenders.

I don't quite follow your argument on the Bush and the cartoons. Perhaps I am having a slow day.

Turkey's activities ont he border actually have a purpose as there is a longstanding desire by the Kurds not living in Kurdistan ie. northern Iraq and south east Turkey to break away from those countries to form a larger gretaer Kurdistan. it is obviosuly not a simple black and white issue but I feel that we win the West (self defininig liberals at any rate) are quick to denounce the actions of foreign governments when dealing with terrorists or other 'dissidents'. As you say our hands are not exactly unbloody.

[mockney piers]

I'm generally pretty quick to denounce my own government's too.

I'm a firm believer that short of threat of invasion, that violence should never be used as policy, at least not without very good reason. Dialogue should always be the number one route.

This is doubly so when you are the one with the power and the strength.

However you look at it, responding to a fifth of your population who'd rather not be ruled by you by sending in the tanks, killing tens of thousands of people, burning thousands of towns and villages, and displacing hundreds of thousand of people isn't really a sensible starting point.

Likewise 'reshaping' the middle east by sending in the tanks, killing hundreds of thousands of people, displacing millions and reducing several towns to rubble is something of a stain on this nation. I no more approve of the one than t'other.

[downsouth]

Yes premptive strikes are not the way to go. Diplomacy first is important. To be honest I don't think I am that far away from your view point but your take on turkey seems to me to be overly simplistic. Whereas our involvement in the region is quite frankly brazen, Turkey's is much more nuanced than you appear to give credit. And before you say it I am not an apologist but I do find it trying when armchair generals/politicians (of which we are all guilty at times) think they know best especially from 1,000 miles away. There are so many stories we don't hear every day yet if it is negative we most certainly will.

I'd rather Turkey were on our side and inflenced by us through example and agreement.