Pen Knives

[Marmora Man]

Pen knives are probably only used or carried by men over the age of 40 these days - those that perhaps spent time as boy scouts, or similar, when younger.

A report in yesterday's papers Disabled Caravanner Charged stated that a man had been charged and found guilty for having an "Offensive Weapon" in the glove box of his car. It was a closed Swiss Army knife. He was given a conditional discharge by magistrates so, it could be argued, that they did not see his offence as being serious - but they did find him guilty.

A definition of an offensive weapon is:

'Offensive weapon' means any article made or adapted for use for causing injury to the person, or intended by the person having it worth him for such use by him (or some other person).

I routinely carry a Swiss Army knife in my briefcase and use it to open envelopes, trim paper, sharpen pencils, cut string, clean finger nails, fasten / unfasten small screws and a myriad of other occasional uses.

Can the legal beagles of the EDF advise whether I'm at risk of being charged and, if it were to happen, what my defence might be?

I would argue that a Swiss Army knife is a useful tool - it, usually, has two small blades plus any number of other things - tweezers, a tooth pick, a screwdriver, a nail file, scissors etc. It could certainly cause harm, or even death, if used with that intent - but then so could a half brick picked up from the ground, a walking stick or even my own hands or feet.

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

I too carry a Swiss Army penknife - always prepared! I guess that makes me an outlaw too.

Shall we hole up in Dulwich Woods and wear hose in a fetching shade of eau de nil?

[kpc]

OK, the report doesn't give a lot of detail but it seems he kept the knife in his car in line with the purposes for which it had been designed and he wa not displaying intent with regard to offensive weapons. Charge him for being a caravanner by all means but this is ludicrous.

Reckon I'd do time for my Leatherman multi-tool then.

[PeckhamRose]

And we ride cars and motorcycles and people die in road smacks, so why aren't we all banned from riding potentially letahl weapons/vehicles?

I don't carry and knife or a gun but I do carry keys and a tail comb and they can cause nasty damage. Sue me.

Legislation / criminalisation / grrrrrrrrrr!

[brum]

KPC - nice caravanner joke slipped in there!

Common sense must surely prevail in such circumstances. There's surely a massive difference between brandishing an unsheathed weapon and carrying a closed Swiss army knife in a glove compartment of your car (or brief case, for that matter). Strange times indeed.....

[womanofdulwich]

i always have a swiss army per knife- and have taken it to wimbledon several times by mistake- a real pain if they find it as you have to hand it in and go and reclaim it at the end of the day.

[HAL9000]

It looks to me like this guy pleaded guilty.

Mr Jolyon Tuck, defending, said he uses the knife to cut up fruit on picnics with his wife.

He said:"He accepts it is in his car and the law is very clear. He admits possession of it and he had no good reason for having it."

There's no defence there. He didn?t put up a fight ? probably didn?t know the law and talked too much to the police before getting legal advice.

As a retired maintenance engineer he probably had a valid reason on a plate - I think a not guilty verdict was achievable in this case.

[bob]

Is there some thing to do with the blade length over 2 1/2"

Bob S

[Keef]

I always have a penknife on me. Remember a policeman coming to our school and telling us that an old lady carrying salt in her bag, to throw in an attacker's eyes, could get done for carrying a weapon. No idea if that is true, but it stuck in my head.

[reetpetite]

I carry a small penknife in my handbag it has a 1953 farthing in the handle and is also a keyring but I dont have it with my keys .It was my Dads and he used it to peel the skin off apples.I would never think of using it as a weapon but it does come in handy at times.Its only 2 inches long when open ( the blade is 1 inch.) ,am I breaking the law?

[sophiesofa]

I wouldn't be without my swiss army key ring pen knife - probably the most useful thing I've ever purchased. I went to court a few weeks ago (as a witness not a baddy) and it didn't get picked up by the scanners and it quite often gets missed if I get bag searched going into clubs.

[woofmarkthedog]

Ohhhh...

You're "nicked sunny"

...but I regularly carry, on or about my person one like this ( during working hours )

http://www.conney.com/wcsstore/Conney/images/fullsize/z80037.gif

And one like this..

http://www.sheffieldknives.co.uk/acatalog/lambfootrh-th.jpg

All legit because of work & I have been stopped & not had any problems

W**F

[SteveT]

I was walking around a park one day on my own just me and my machette in one hand and a smallish assagai in the other when this policeman approached me. I lifted the assagai like you would any old spear, and the machette as high as my shoulder and shouted "come and get me copper" and "top of the world mar".

And then can you believe it he nutted me knee'd me and knicked me, which I thought was most unjust........................to be continued.

I am not taking my swiss army knife with me anywhere, as it's too damned big and heavy, and pulls my suits all shapes.

[The Minkey]

"I was walking around a park one day on my own just me and my machette in one hand and a smallish assagai in the other when this policeman approached me. I lifted the assagai like you would any old spear, and the machette as high as my shoulder and shouted "come and get me copper" and "top of the world mar"."

ROTFLMA..

[Asset]

Mr Asset regularly has his Swiss Army knife in his pocket (unless he's just pleased to see me all the time) and I bought master Asset (13) an Opinel knife from France recently.

We are well tooled up here.

I think the above case is the nanny state getting a little carried away and Marmora Man you'd be fine, but then technically it is an offence so who knows?

[SteveT]

The Minkey wrote:- ROTFLMA..

Whatever that means, hows about a translation Minkey?

All of us who still write with goose quills, should be allowed a pen knife, it is an absolute must in this modern day and age, or how can a scribe earn a crust?

How else dost thou keep the the bailiff from taking one to the bailey?

[HAL9000]

ROTFLAM[O] = Rolling On The Floor Laughing My Ass/Arse [Off]

See NetLingo List of Internet Acronyms & Text Message Jargon

[????]

In my youth carrying a knife law was got round by having one of those mini- glass bottles of lucozade (with just a bit left in the bottom) smashed on the road and, hey presto, a lethal weapon...nowdays it seems Pit Bulls are the way to get round it.....

[SteveT]

Thanks HAL I'm very much obliged to you. I had done a search, sadly to no avail.

[Huguenot]

I reckon there's far more to this that meets the eye.

The problem with law is that it must by nature be arbitrary. Hence if you set in place a law for knife-wielding extortionists, it can equally be applied to caravanners.

So we end up applying it with a heavy dose of common sense.

Unlike many readers of the Telegraph I'm not prepared to assume that we had a perfect storm of idiotic police and magistrates. I think it's much more likely that there was something else going down and this proved an appropriate warning shot.

Now. That aside. I've looked at this in coverage across the web, and it's almost uniformly conflated with highly politicised statements about Labour hating people and 'nanny' state - even though Labour clearly have no direct control over the police or judiciary on an incident by incident basis.

So bearing all that in mind, I've come to the conclusion that there's probably a heavy dose of bullshit in this, and it's probably Tory electioneering, and that's probably why Mamora Man was the OP. ;-)

[Marmora Man]

Hugenot - your "conspiracy theory gene" must be on overtime. I did read the article in the Telegraph (see note), I agree. I am also right of centre by political persuasion and also a proponent of small government. None of which particularly reflect upon the core of my post.

My OP was placed as a genuine query - I have carried a knife, usually a penknife, almost all my life. First as a boy scout (sheath knife on a belt), then at sea (clasp knife with working rig) and then as a civilian (Swiss Army knife). It is not Labour Government, per se, that I abhor - but bad, petty and interfering government, and this catch all law is a good example of limited thinking, lack of common sense and the limited value of an across the board law that has little or no effect on criminals but gives police powers to criminalise otherwise solid (stolid in the case of caravanners?) people.

NOTE: I also read The Times (daily), the FT (weekly), the Guardian (online) and the Sun or Mirror at the barbers.

[felt-tip]

the approach of some coppers seems to be that nicking an old codger carrying a penknife is an easier and less dangerous way to bump their 'knife crime' stats than approaching someone who may be willing to use or be savvy to police ways in getting damning testimony etc..

acab.

[Huguenot]

Only teasing MM, hence the winkey, the article was also in the Daily Mail.

I don't really see how you could shape a law that isn't a catch-all unless you specifically added an exclusion for 'disabled caravanners'.

Then you'd have a load of muppets in Mile End asking the CPS to prove that they're not disabled caravanners.

We have to rely on common sense.

As for this situation, I'll be betting that there's more to it than meets the eye.

Unlike felt-tip, I'm not willing to use this ridiculous story to damn all police.

[absentminded]

A knife is classed as illegal if the blade is 3 inches or longer and/or is lockable or fixed.

I think that makes sense. I used to work in a tourist attraction in Cental London and had to confiscate any illegal knives off visitors. It's surprising how many older men carry them without knowing the law.

[Lawrence]

I think nowadays you should watch what you carry as I do not think the police exercise much common sense, just follow the book.

18 months ago I was pulled over and my (scruffy)car was searched. A chain of events had led to me having a lightweight walking ice axe and a Global fish filleting knife in the car (as well as rod, tackle, rucksack, a set of golf clubs and everything else you need for a good outdoor holiday). As axes puncture rucksacks I sensibly tucked it under the rear seats, which I think was interpreted as 'ready for action'

I was arrested without discussion, swabbed, fingerprinted detained for nearly 9 hours. After a farcical interview involving demonstrations of step cutting and a phone call to my brother to confirm when I was last seen fishing, I was released with no charge.

One more quality stat on the Operation Blunt roll call.