There is no plan

[Azira]

Wow: http://news.sky.com/video/1717859/islam-there-is-no-brexit-plan

[WorkingMummy]

But he's right. It is not personal to Cameron.

But it can't be "Leave".

Leave does not exist, constitutionally. It's like the tooth fairy. "Leave" cannot issue instructions to Whitehall or meet EU negotiators and speak on our behalf.

[Azira]

No, but the MPs in the Leave campaign should have had some inkling of a plan.

[Blah Blah]

But they didn't expect a win. Boris used the referendum to forward his own ambition. He expected a narrow loss that he could then use. That's why he was so sheepish the day after. They all were. And then Cameron pulled a masterstroke, and stepped down. This is about an Eton rivalry, and both Cameron and Boris are prepared to junk UK plc to out-do each other. Completely disgraceful.

[Azira]

I agree with your analysis of Boris's motives, but this is more than an Eton rivalry. I believe most of the rest of the Leave campaign genuinely believed in their message. The idea that they engaged in this with zero thought as to what would come next is, sadly, consistent with the lack of rational thought that underlined their arguments on many topics.

[Blah Blah]

Yes and they had the nerve to dimiss any attempts to give detail of economic impact as scaremongering.

[jaywalker]

Great post Azira - that video says it all.

The referendum is now revealed as profoundly undemocratic. The will of the people is not expressible by a single vote unless a massive majority and based on planning not posturing so that the revealed 'will' is stable. Clearly that is NOT the case here. That will has already moved on as the lies are exposed. If one wants democracy of this kind, new information demands new referendums as it comes to light (as is also the case when any plan has actually been made). A single referendum is aporetic.

The whole point of parliamentary democracy (as opposed to plebiscites) is that there is an ONGOING interrogation of policies.

But of course there could not be a plan, could there? The antimony in the leave camp would have been exposed (as it now is). The Norway solution (the only possible one that would be non-catastrophic for the UK economy) is anathema to the Ruritanians because it demands free movement of labour as the price of a common market.

[Jules-and-Boo]

Well FORTUNATELY, the politicians themselves will not be negotiating the trade deal/ exit deals.

Because Cameron resigned - and he was our PM, we need a new PM to initiate the changes. Hence the confusion.

The blame game is clearly afoot. Corbyn - well - did he really do that badly? Labour constituencies voted Remain quite vehmently. CAmeron should have got his house in order and failed.

Boris - we'll I'd have expected something to be lined up - perhaps it's just not been announced yet. Has he actually said the opposite?

Can we officially call this after the dessert, Eton Mess?

[WorkingMummy]

I don't draw conclusions about people's motives because that I believe is impossible. (Sometimes it's hard even fully to know your own...)

But I agree - no leave plan.

But they have always said it. Said to the PM on a live tv debate when they were asked. Spokesperson said "His problem".

Which it is. Again, it is not Cameron's personal problem. Although you can blame Cameron personally - if you like - for calling a bloody 50% popular vote on the infrastructure of a big part of the global political and economic world, no one can escape the reality that planning and executing BREXIT for the UK is a task which only the government is constitutionally able to do.

And leave is not a government. Or even an opposition party. It's simply a rag-tag of co-belligerents, with no common ideology and absolutely no policy. Leave is just a slogan.

Even if BJ (or Gove) had had a plan, he'd be powerless to implement it because he is not PM. He is not the government.

It's why this is a constitutional crisis now.

[Azira]

messageRe: There is no plan new

Posted by Jules-and-Boo Today, 05:45PM

Can we officially call this after the dessert, Eton Mess?

No, because if we learn anything from this whole mess, it should be to be suspicious of simple stories.

[Jules-and-Boo]

The referendum is - in itself - less that that. It's an indication of what the electorate want.

The fact that it has brought out so many lies, dirty-=dealings - uncomfortable truths - here and across EU - means that this will never go back to Business As Usual.

Pandora's box of opinion and mettle has been well and truly opened.

Now, it's time to do something about it.

[JoeLeg]

If Leave had a plan they should've spoken up by now. I admit it's possible they are working out details, or maybe just waiting until Monday morning to announce, but I think that's a mistake. People want stability and clarity (from politicians, ha! Yes I get the irony), as I hope we hear from them very soon.

I get that we need to wait for a new PM and associated govt to be in place before things move forward, but some indicator of intentions is owed to the general public, even if they need time to resolve details.

Uncertainty helps no one.

[WorkingMummy]

Good one though. History A-level Q 2063:

Discuss the Eton Mess and its role in the geo-political crisis of 2016-2019.

[JoeLeg]

Jules-and-Boo Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The referendum is - in itself - less that that.

> It's an indication of what the electorate want.

>

> The fact that it has brought out so many lies,

> dirty-=dealings - uncomfortable truths - here and

> across EU - means that this will never go back to

> Business As Usual.

>

> Pandora's box of opinion and mettle has been well

> and truly opened.

>

> Now, it's time to do something about it.

Agreed. But what? If we know anything right now it's that we have no idea what will happen next. Makes it hard to work out what we - as an electorate - should be asking for. Obviously as an electorate we've spoken regarding the EU. But will they press on with Article 50, and if so then when, and if not then what?

[Azira]

Heh @ WM

[Blah Blah]

Not just that, but the markets need to be stabilised too. Sterling is expected to take another hit tm. And the Euro has been hit too. This doesn't just affect our economy, but is sending shock waves that are affecting the economies of others too. That's why there are calls from other EU countries to get started now. They are taking hits for our decision too. And this is all before anything in a physical sense has even happened. Having said that, a mutually acceptable agreement between us and Europe will help the markets, which is why I still think we'll end up with a Norway type deal that we can live with.

Whoever takes the seat of government to lead on this, they are screwed.

[WorkingMummy]

Azira Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> messageRe: There is no plan new

> Posted by Jules-and-Boo Today, 05:45PM

>

> Can we officially call this after the dessert,

> Eton Mess?

>

>

> No, because if we learn anything from this whole

> mess, it should be to be suspicious of simple

> stories.

Oooooo wise words. Azira, I don't know you. But please God, are you under 35? If so, please consider a career in public life.

[WorkingMummy]

Agreed Jules-and-Boy. But I really think only Buckingham Palace can do it.

It's call a GE or appoint a new PM from existing MPs.

(Could be anyone in theory. Could be a member of the Hoise of Lords and has been historically, at least once that I can think of off the top of my head.)

[Azira]

Heh. Sadly no - early 40s. And I think they do too hard a job for me anyway.

[WorkingMummy]

Oh and hear hear jaywalker.

[heartblock]

There was never, at no point, whatsoever, ANY plan from Vote Leave camp, which makes it even more ridiculous that anyone voted for leave. Stupid stupid stupid. Roast beef was great, Mr. HB ate a whole packet of veg sausages, ms. Bedford enjoyed the Yorkshires. We are now a bottle of gin and a bottle of wine or two down and despairing of the stupidity of ANYONE believing Boris and Farage - one sacked for being a liar and one an out and out racist.

[Jules-and-Boo]

Let's start a game - like fantasy football, but with politicians and who we would like to be in our government.

[heartblock]

Grayson Perry

[rupert james]

What this shows whether you voted in or out there is no politician or political party that has any kudos to pick the baton up and run with it.

It is a internet world and real live experience now does not exist to make any worthwhile contribution.

Perhaps people should look at the Somme, misguided but true conviction.

How many of these people would welcome a rerun.

Snowflake generation, how very true.

Referendum. advisory to Government Yes. Let's backtrack. Make your mind up to what this means to this Country.

[Azira]

I'm having trouble following your logic - are you equating the EU with Nazi Germany?