What to do about Israel?

[DJKillaQueen]

The truth is that there is nothing the UN or anyone can do to sort the Ireal/ Palestine conflict until both sides show real efforts to search for a solution. It's a war of attrition and force can not be used because Ireal has nuclear weapons, and unsing force in Palestine to deal with Hamas would inflame half the middle-east, most notably Iran, who themeslves before long will have a nuclear capability - and there's nothing the US or UN can do about that either (for all of their hot air over the matter).

[Loz]

ImpetuousVrouw Wrote:

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> Did anyone hear that someoneon the ship who was

> trying to photograph the Isreali commandos was

> shot dead for his troubles. I wonder how much

> footage that isn't isreali propoganda we will

> actually get to see after they have finished

> searching the boats and their occupants.

IV, I personally do not believe any eyewitness accounts from either side. Most of them are entirely fictitious. Both sides have impressive media massaging teams.

[ImpetuousVrouw]

This was said by a victim of the Isreali assault on Radio 4 this morning just after she had been released from an Israeli prison. Do you think she managed a quick debrief in the bogs before she spoke to the waiting media?

[Loz]

It wasn't by any chance this lady, IV?

[DJKillaQueen]

The more that comes out the more it suggests that Isreal's real problem with these ships is that one or more of them was manned mainly by Turkish peace activists. THAT I think is the key to whatever went on.

[Loz]

And this is how downright stupid the whole situation has descended to.

Hamas refuses flotilla aid

[Keef]

ImpetuousVrouw Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> This was said by a victim of the Isreali assault

> on Radio 4 this morning just after she had been

> released from an Israeli prison. Do you think she

> managed a quick debrief in the bogs before she

> spoke to the waiting media?

I heard her, and frankly, she was too emotional to be impartial about it. She believes in what she believes (or else she wouldn't have been there), and they gave her the air time in which to have a god rant.

[mockney piers]

This was written by Max Kohnstamm, a Dutch jewish concentration camp survivor, whoh soon after the war administered Marshall plan resources and was soon involved in the European project, cooperating and becoming friends with Winrich Behr, one of the last officers to get out of Stalingrad alive. He echoes my feelings but says it much better than I could.

"It was Thucydides who described the dealings between states as a world in which the strong do as they like and the weak put up with what they must. Power and dominion form the basis of that system, even when a balance has been achieved within it. But neither the hegemony of a given superpower nor the attempt to prevent war by means of a balance of power have ever led to a lasting peace. The big question remains: can power be replaced as a ruling principle in international relations by justice? And how can justice, if it is not to deteriorate into mere words receive access to power? Can we, to that end, develop other forms of power, in order to establish justice between states?

Now that modern weaponry has made the danger of war even greater, this question has become even more urgent. A European fort, a sort of Switzerland on a large scale, is an illusion in today's world. The power to destroy, once the monopoly held by the state, is now in the hands of anyone who can obtain the necessary information through the internet.

The power of mass destruction, in other words, has become increasingly privatised in this world. In such a situation, can the international institutions with their joint responsibility provide justice that is accompanied by the power it needs?

For our civilisation, the ability to develop a robust international rule of law is a matter of survival. Is that a utopia? No: for half a century, Europe has been proving that it is possible"

Quoted from Geert Mak's In Europe

[mockney piers]

It really then boils down to the US. The middle East is vital purely and simply for oil. The US hopes to maintain as much stability as possible by giving Israel a preponderance of power in the area, but we can all see that that doesn't prevent conflict. Everytime Israel abuses that power the US tells them off, but blocks UN condemnations and doesn't lessen financial and military aid, their horse is too important in their strategy to stop backing wholly. The continued injustices of the Palestinian situation do nothing but foster instability and resentment, and Israel's response is to build a big wall, put their fingers in their ears and go 'la la la'.

But we surely can all see that this is not the way forward. Post communist Eastern Europe saw bankrupt, crumbling societies, and this breeds discontent which breeds extreme governments, it also saw millions of people under laxer controls wanting to become economic migrants. Our response was not to build walls and try to shut the problems out, but to invite them in. To allow labour to move freely and to invest in the crumbling factories, letting them share in mutual prosperity and common interests.

I remember once reading an op-ed that the two state solution would probably never happen, perhaps the only way forward that could really work is to make a single state and have it join the European Union. Massively unrealistic perhaps, but I've yet to hear a suggestion that would be more likely to actually deliver peace!!

[ImpetuousVrouw]

I vote Mr Piers for Middle East Peace Envoy!

[Brendan]

Hmmm?. So an international organisation aimed at preventing war through collective security.

Now I?m sure another Afrikaner, perhaps slightly more eminent than me, had an idea like that once.

It could work well if Britain and America don?t spend 80 years trying to undermine its various incarnations from within.

[mockney piers]

The problem with the UN is that from it's inception it's never been anything but a glorified talking shop (leaving aside the great things it does for health and development around the world). The WHOLE point of the European project is to subordinate national interests (primarily economic) to common interests. The collective security is almost a by-product, not a theoretical goal.

It doesn't pass my attention btw, that most of those who complain about Europe are the ones who advocate much greater military spending. Seeing as our last two wars bankrupted us then lost us our empire, along with the deaths of over a million of our citizens, I personally don't see how can afford NOT to subordinate national for common interests and subordinate our local judiciary to a common overriding framework for justice.

[Brendan]

Is it necessarily necessary for member states to subordinate their local judiciary in order to enter into an agreement of common collective security?

[david_carnell]

The trouble with a two-state solution is Jerusalem. Neither side will want to abandon claim to their holy city. The annexation by Israel of East Jerusalem is further problematic as Palestinians would like to see this as their capital in an independent Palestine.

Perhaps it could become a self-styled city-state much like the Vatican City or Singapore. Give Jerusalem it's own seat at the UN and a seperate security force (perhaps by the UN itself or like the Swiss Guard) thus removing the problem.

[mockney piers]

Agreed it's not necessary in order to make an agreement, but I think it is necessary to at least have a common overarching framework in order for it to work.

Something like the ECHR and War Crimes Court and more similar institutions can only help too.

Without it, as Kohnstam realises, there is no route for the expression of power purely through the means of justice rather than other mechanisms of coercion.

[HAL9000]

The idea of an independent, international, pan-religious Jerusalem has been around for a long time. I favour this solution but can't see the Jews ever agreeing to it.

The Greek Orthodox Church owns much of the Holy City. It even owns the land the Knesset (Israeli Parliament) is built on, which is rented by the State of Israel.

[david_carnell]

Forgive my ignorance but how the bejesus did the Greek Orthodox church end up owning the land?

I mean there are Jewish, Muslim, Christian and even Armenian sectors to Jerusalem but I didn't the Greeks were involved too.

As this is the lounge and I'm free to be flippant could I suggest they sold it to pay off some debt?!

[Brendan]

The Byzantines?

[Brendan]

Wikipedia to the rescue once more: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Orthodox_Church_of_Jerusalem

[HAL9000]

It's very convenient for me - one of my relatives is an Archimandrite in Jerusalem so I get to stay in a monastery and to stand up front at the Easter Holy Light ceremony in the Holy Sepulchre. Na na nana na!

[Loz]

one of my relatives is an Archimandrite

Weren't they defeated by Dr Who?

[Brendan]

So you get a free place to stay but you have to go to church. Sounds a bit like going home for Christmas.

[HAL9000]

Actually, the monks out there maintain free/low-cost hostels and hospices for Greek Orthodox pilgrims throughout the year.

I stay in the monastery proper, the guests' quarters, which are usually reserved for visiting VIPs and church officials - it's quite an experience.

An Archimandrite is equivalent to an Abbot: the head of one or more monasteries. The difference in the GOC is that most celibate monks are also priests - they are called Hieromonks to distinguish them from the married priests.

[Narnia]

This could be interesting.........The Turkish sending another aid boat protected by the Turkish Navy.

[Narnia]

By the way the latest ship seized by Israel was Irish. Now it's personal. That's our boat in international waters. What right have you got? *uck off!