Turney Road / Dulwich Village / Court Lane junction

[fordybee]

I'm adopting a scatter gun approach after a scary incident this morning - am trying to get word out to all, pedestrians and car drivers re potential accident waiting to happen at the junction of Turney Road, Dulwich Village and Court Lane.

My daughter and I were on our way to school, travelling north along Dulwich Village past the florist on the left side of the road to the junction with Turney Road. We waited at the traffic lights and when the green man lit up my daughter moved into the road. Luckily I spotted that there was a car coming and stopped her but she was narrowly missed by the car (which was then followed by a further two cars). None of the cars gave way, and none of them stopped to check we were ok. Unfortunately I was too shocked to get their number plates.

I can only assume that those cars were in the middle of the road waiting to turn right into Turney Road from the end of Court Lane, or from the opposite side of Dulwich Village, and turned right when their light was in fact red (although possibly they had gone past the light so didn't know this). I assume that they didn't realise that the pedestrian light was green.

This would appear to be an accident waiting to happen. My daughter was very shocked and upset, and insistent that it wasn't her fault as the green man was there - it has taught us a lesson that we should still check to see if cars are coming, but I understand from other mothers that this happens regularly at this junction.

I have emailed Southwark Council through their website, as well as the local police team and Helen Hayes our MP, as well as the school safer routes to school coordinator, but thought I'd also get the message out on the forum - although it's not strictly East Dulwich. We are trying our best not to contribute to the traffic in the area by cycling to school instead of going in the car, but this has made me very nervous about continuing to do so, and shattered my daughter's confidence on day two! She was doing so well, she's only 5 and cycled all the way from our home in Carver Road up to DC and back down to JAPs and I really want to try and keep this going.

[singalto]

So many drivers ignore the lights there and I have stopped using that route to get to work. Glad you're OK. Have you checked whether or not there are cameras on those lights?

[TheCat]

Sorry to hear your daughter got a fright. The intersection is quite tricky sometimes. I have seen what you describe a number of times. And have been the driver turning right into turney road a number of times. When waiting there to turn right there are 2 issues, one is that you are past any lights, so cant see what they are showing, and 2) people coming north up Dulwich Village and wanting to turn right onto court lane, rarely (if ever) leave a gap when queuing for people to turn right the other way. So the upshot is you get stuck in the middle of the intersection when the traffic is about to come across it the other way, which is also dangerous.

I agree the junction needs work, but drivers or pedestrians should check the road before setting out, green signal or not.

[DadOf4]

sorry to hear about the incident

Yes- that junction is a nighmare. It needs completely simplifying

[fordybee]

Thanks all. Haven't checked cameras as I don't think I need to go chasing after the drivers - as TheCat says, it's a dilemma and more the fault of the planners / council as the light system isn't working to ensure the safety of those it is designed to protect (drivers or pedestrians); though I do think those today could have slowed down and if I was a driver and saw a child on the road I'd stop to let the child across not just carry on regardless (which is what the 3 who drove past appeared to do today). Yes pedestrians should check even if there is a green light, but I also think drivers should drive extra carefully near schools.

[P.O.U.S.theWonderCat]

Why would they particularly know there is a school there? I certainly didn't when I first came to visit friends from outside of Dulwich.

I'm sorry your daughter got a fright, but I was taught at kindergarten that you had to check left, right, left again and wait before you crossed even at lights.

[bawdy-nan]

Well - if they were approaching from Dulwich village they would have driven past several

signs indicating a school and in any case the pedestrians have right of way:

Highway Code

Road junctions (170 to 183)

170

Take extra care at junctions. You should

watch out for cyclists, motorcyclists, powered wheelchairs/mobility scooters and pedestrians as they are not always easy to see. Be aware that they may not have seen or heard you if you are approaching from behind

watch out for pedestrians crossing a road into which you are turning. If they have started to cross they have priority, so give way

P.O.U.S.theWonderCat Wrote:

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> Why would they particularly know there is a school

> there? I certainly didn't when I first came to

> visit friends from outside of Dulwich.

>

> I'm sorry your daughter got a fright, but I was

> taught at kindergarten that you had to check left,

> right, left again and wait before you crossed even

> at lights.

[singalto]

If the green man was flashing it is perfectly reasonable for fordybee to assume crossing is safe. The cars which jumped the lights are in the wrong.

[Lowlander]

P.O.U.S.theWonderCat Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Why would they particularly know there is a school

> there? I certainly didn't when I first came to

> visit friends from outside of Dulwich.

>

> I'm sorry your daughter got a fright, but I was

> taught at kindergarten that you had to check left,

> right, left again and wait before you crossed even

> at lights.

Sounds like you're from the US. In this country (at nursery) children are told to look left and right, and if the man is green, then it is safe to cross.

This car didn't come from left or right, was turning at a junction.

[fordybee]

Thanks bawdy-nan and singalto. I'd also imagine that lots of kids walking along the pavement in school uniform would suggest there's a school nearby - though actually that's a bit of a red-herring - the 20 mph limits are presumably in places where there are greater risks to pedestrians so perhaps drivers should drive more carefully generally in a 20 mph zone, not just near schools. And as I admitted in my original post, it's a learning point for us as a family that just because the green man is there, we still need to check (and we've already learnt that on pedestrian crossings like the one on Half Moon Lane / Burbage Rd when a coach went sailing through without slowing down, yet alone stopping). I think kids are taught this at school, though I couldn't be sure either of mine were. As a parent I've always taught them to check both ways (although here we check right, left, right 😉) but unfortunately accidents happen in exactly this kind of circumstance - when not expected and when, in the moment, kids sometimes forget what they've been taught.

I wasn't trying to start a debate about who was right or wrong, just wanted to raise awareness among drivers and pedestrians as I'd hate for something serious to happen at that junction - to anyone.

[bawdy-nan]

Yes, fordybee, def worth emphasising to children that the green man means it's your turn but that you still have to look and not absolutely expect it's safe to cross. We live near a very complicated crossing, with lots of delayed turning across lanes and you can't always trust cars and other vehicles not to just plough on through. Also, really worth the reminder that vehicles can behave unpredictably - not least emergency vehicles. Hope you're not too traumatised and will continue to cycle!

Also - next week will see the return of the lollipop ladies who, although they don't control that particular crossing, do at least, add a bit more "vulnerable road users here" visibility.

[Robert Poste's Child]

It can be a rather aggressive junction, particularly during rush hours, which hereabouts means the start and end of the school day.

Another factor may be that although all pedestrians cross at the same time, the green men light up at different times, for example the Court Lane one is several clear seconds after the DV one. It's possible that a driver waiting to turn down Townley Rd, as the OP saw, may see that the closest one to them is still showing a red man and thinks they're still OK to go. Synchronising the lights properly would iron that out. I cycle through the junction several times a day so I'm used to it but I can imagine it catching people out.

[wulfhound]

Thanks for flagging this up fordybee.

There was talk of plans to rebuild this junction to make it safer for pedestrians and cyclists. Seemed to be pretty controversial though (and some of the proposed designs weren't very good), don't know if it's still happening.

Generally seems a TfL thing lately to get rid of "repeater" traffic lights (those on the far side of the junction from the approach/waiting area), which does cause additional problems for right-turning traffic waiting past the first set of signals.

Just to be clear on what happened - Court Lane in to Turney Rd isn't a right turn, it's straight ahead (with priority over Turney-in-to-Village southbound right turns) - so there shouldn't be anything waiting there past the stop line.

Do you know which road has the green immediately before the pedestrian green? That will make it clear as to what happened - my guess is it was Dulwich Village southbound traffic which got stuck waiting for the right turn, but only way to know for sure is to check the ordering of signals there.

@ P.O.U.S. - in the UK, unlike many US states & some places in Europe, the green man is supposed to (in theory) confer absolute priority on pedestrians - no vehicle/cycle is supposed to be able to cross that line. But it's possible to have badly designed junctions where this doesn't happen, or other road users breaking the law.

[Penguin68]

confer absolute priority on pedestrians - no vehicle/cycle is supposed to be able to cross that line. But it's possible to have badly designed junctions where this doesn't happen,

With complex junctions it's also possible for lights effectively to go out of phase, so that pedestrians and motorists - particularly turning motorists - both seem to have a 'green'. For both motorists and pedestrians, whatever the light signal, it is always worth checking that your way is actually clear. You can be both right and injured/ dead. And I wish (all) cyclists were as clear about lights as the rest of us. [by the way twice, last week, a cyclist acknowledged my holding back (in my car) to allow them to proceed safely through a gap - I haven't seen that level of courtesy for a long time].

[shoshntosh]

Thanks very much for sharing this experience, Fordybee. My children walk to school that route every single day and I had no idea this was happening so I will check it out.

p.s. Lowlander, As the word kindergarten is actually (and obviously) a German word it is possible that WonderCat could be from somewhere other than the US.

[fordybee]

As an update, I've had a good study of the lights at that junction over the past few days going to/from school - the drivers are past the lights, so have no idea that their light is now red, and presumably can't see the green man for the pedestrians, so I am in no way drivers here - I would do the same. But I would ask everyone in a car to go slowly and be aware that little people might be on the road.

Clearly at the very least some change is required to the light synchronisation - no idea how they do that, but the green man should probably not come on immediately, and then stay on a bit later to allow pedestrians across. Over to the council (who have obviously not answered my email)....

In the meantime, as a family we are now aware that cars still come from the right even when there's a green man, so we wait until they have gone before we cross. All the better that others are also now aware.

Thanks all.

[Bicknell]

Don't know if you've seen this www.justgiving.com/crowdfunding/dulwich-village-junction-alternative

They want Southwark to come up with a design that's better for cyclists and pedestrians.

Might be worth a look.

[rendelharris]

Penguin68 Wrote:

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And I wish (all) cyclists were as

> clear about lights as the rest of us. .

Ten minutes observation of driver behaviour at any light controlled junction round here and I think you'd change that to "some of the rest of us."

[Bicknell]

I'm going to move this to a new thread - they've got over half the money now, so it's getting local support.

[Earl Aelfheah]

It is a terrible junction, although I don't remember it always being so bad. Did something change in terms of layout or phasing at some point?

[kford]

Change it to a small roundabout, like Goose Green's, with zebra crossings. Cars will have to slow from all directions then and traffic will flow. There's space.

[pop9770]

The phasing of the lights has been changed to make it hell so they can push through a new layout.

Dangerous for the benefit of Southwark Road planners and the contractors who have them in their back pocket.