Even Public Schools are crap at history

[Narnia]

In case anyone needs a refresher that excellent series 'The World at War' is currently being repeated on BBC 2 on a Monday and Tuesday at 1 in the afternoon. It's worth recording and watching if you are able to.

[DJKillaQueen]

It is by far the best documentary series ever made. Can watch that again and again.

[DaveR]

The US started shipping guns, ammo etc. to Britain in mid 1940, and started shipping them effectively for free in early 41. German U boats started sinking US ships in early 41, so by no means certain that the US would have stayed out of it even without Pearl Harbor.

junior partner? Dunno. But the war could not have been won without the US on the allied side.

[mockney piers]

Cameron said he was, and I quote, 'the heir to Blair'. That alone scares me shitless.

Yes, we drew the line in the sand. Yes we decided to fight, in a very, very large part thanks to Churchill, a bad politician, a damn good leader in a pinch, when much of the cabinet wanted to find terms, and believe me, we could have found terms.

We had the navy meaning Germany would be continental, not global. Hitler even respected the empire and wanted an anglo-saxon alliance.

That we didn't fall into temptation when the cost of difficult choices was as awful as it indeed it became was truly our finest hour.

Junior partner. Without question. Just look at the leadership during the war, Monty got sidelined, Winny got heard by Roosevelt but he (winny, not the dead guy) was almost surplus to requirements at Potsdam.

Then look at the aftermath. The end of the war played out well thanks to Stimpson, the peace played out badly because neither Truman nor the peple he trusted had the foggiest idea about the world beyond their borders. Greece, eerrrrr...trojans? Err no, a rather nasty civil war...ahhhh, the russsians...errrr....no...no really, no....oh dear there seems to be a cold war...too late....

[waynetta]

I read somewhere that the Americans dropped the atomic bomb on Hiroshima and nagasaki because of what they had to go through on Okinawa and the other pacific islands. The Japanese were quite prepared to sacrifice their lives in battle,even on the islands of no military tactical consequence.Okinawa was a total bloodbath.the Americans had nightmares of what an invasion of the Japanese mainland would incur in casualties on both sides hence their use of the a bomb. That's what I read anyway.

[taper]

That's pretty accurate. There's a clutch of conspiracy theories that say other factors forced the decision, eg commonly a desire to scare the Soviets; also that the Japanese were about to sue for peace. But the evidence suggests the desire to halt further US military sacrifice by ending the war quickly (which the bombs did) drove Truman's decision. Recent work in Japan shows the two bombs did indeed strengthen the peace element within the Japanese cabinet, who were able to prevail

[mockney piers]

I don't know, I studied this pretty closely.

Scaring the soviets seems weak. It was mentioned at Potsdam and Stalin nodded and said something on the lines of 'make good uses of it' whilst frankly knowing that they already had most of the intelligence they needed to make one within a few years.

Punishing the Japanese feels plausible to me, a bit like our civilian bombing of the Germans. When i saw sidiq khan saying 'you voted the warmongers, you are all targets', my heart was repulsed, my head said 'ohh, bomber harris'.

Ultimately i think it was simply strategic; the soviets were ploughing through Asia, and China was at risk - stop the war quick. It was all about china, but in the end it didn't matter, they backed the wrong horse in that arena.

[Loz]

waynetta Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I read somewhere that the Americans dropped the

> atomic bomb on Hiroshima and nagasaki because of

> what they had to go through on Okinawa and the

> other pacific islands. The Japanese were quite

> prepared to sacrifice their lives in battle,even

> on the islands of no military tactical

> consequence.Okinawa was a total bloodbath.the

> Americans had nightmares of what an invasion of

> the Japanese mainland would incur in casualties on

> both sides hence their use of the a bomb. That's

> what I read anyway.

Whilst I can (sort of) understand the bombing of Hiroshima, I've always considered Nagasaki to be the vilest science experiment in history. Why not give the Japanese more time to surrender once they understood the devastation of Nagasaki? Why use a different type of bomb, when you know the first type works? Unless the purpose was actually to test, compare and contrast?

[Mick Mac]

???? Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> ...that (maybe for once) we did the right thing

> morally at considerable risk and the yanks input

> was immaterial

Britain defended itself valiantly, but it did not win the war - it won the Battle of Britain though I guess. It probably was Britains finest hour, certainly in recent history. I suspect without US intervention Britain at some point may have eventually been overcome, and likewise if a compromise had been met with the Nazis, this would eventually have meant disaster. In the end the tactical misjudgement that was Pearl Harbor, saved the world.

[????]

I was talking about 1940 not the whole war

[Mick Mac]

I thought I agrred with you.

Within each war there are a number of battles. Britain won the Battle of Britain but the war I suspect may have been lost without the US/Russia. Germany was a great force and was determined to put right the defeat of WWI.

[DJKillaQueen]

In the end the tactical misjudgement that was Pearl Harbor, saved the world.

Maybe yes, but in order to invade the island nations to her south, and secure their oil fields, Japan had to nullify the American fleet at Pearl Harbour. The only misjudgements were in attacking when the aircraft carriers were at sea so they didn't get the entire fleet and in thinking America's mainland was too far away to effectively fight back.

[Mick Mac]

It might have taken a year for the US to rebuild their fleet but I think they would have ultimatley prevailed nonetheless.

But really with a number of countries so ready to follow the Nazi lead and aim for a share of world domination - Its amazing that it all happended so recently.