Using up leave before leaving emploment

[frump]

I am somewhat of a lurker on this forum but today I have a request to those in the know and would really appreciate advice:

Having worked for nearly 20 years for a local authority, I handed in my notice at the end of July and will leave on 24th September- 8 weeks notice. I requested acknowledgement of my resignation 3 weeks ago as I had had no response. I was then asked some questions about how much leave I had taken and how much I intended to take before I left. I responded that I did not plan to take any leave and no more was said about this until today when I was informed that I am owed 4 days leave and would have to take this before I leave. Not counting this week, I only have 6 days work before the end of my notice period as I work part-time. I am told by my employer that I should know HR policy and cannot be paid the days owing. I have explained that I cannot take time off; I work in a therapeutic role in a mental health setting, my diary is booked several weeks in advance and I am on various duty rotas at the local A&E. Unbelievably the Local Authority have not provided me with a manager since December 2009 and as I work in an NHS clinic for the Local Authority, I have no access to the work's Intranet or to management and therefore no access to HR policies.

In short, has my employer given me enough notice to take leave owing or should they have informed me earlier and not expected me to understand/know HR policy especially when I have not resigned a post in 20 years.

I see I have become a bit rambling, but after 20 years and a great deal of nonsense from this employer, i am truly rattled and upset by their attitude.

[Ladymuck]

No wonder you are upset. I no longer work in employment law so would not like to get into too much detail as my knowledge in that area is no longer up to date.

However, as I remember the situation, if for some reason you have outstanding holiday to take before leaving your job, you are entitled to be paid for the holiday which you haven't taken. I have no reason to believe that this basic right has changed. May I suggest that you visit your nearest CAB (I don't know where you are based, but there used to be one in Sydenham and Catford). It won't cost you anything. Good luck.

[DJKillaQueen]

Usually what happens when you write in your resignation is that the employer will work out how much annual leave you have left and work that into your finish date. It sounds as though they, your employer, didn't do this at the time and have left it till the last minute, so for me they are to blame for the mess.

They are quite right though in their HR policy and that is standard practise of paying outstanding leave when notice is served. But I say again that is a discussion they should have had with you when your resignation was tendered. Have a look at your companies HR policy. many companies write in a time limit, of for example, within three days of receipt of resignation to have that conversation and agree the end date in writing.

[frump]

That's really helpful both of you, thank you very much. Aside from rather informal e mails, I have had nothing formal in writing and it does seem unfair to leave it until the last minute. I will ask for their policy on this tomorrow. I will think about the Citizens Advice route as well if this is not resolved; we're not talking wads of cash here but more of a principle after 20 long hard years.

Thanks again to you both for taking the time to respond.

[DJKillaQueen]

yw frump.....get a copy of that HR policy tm and come back to us if you need to.

[Ladymuck]

frump Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> we're not talking wads of

> cash here but more of a principle after 20 long

> hard years.

Quite right too - you fight till the bitter end!

[frump]

Will do!

[Ladymuck]

Just did some research for you...from the CAB website:

Leaving your job

If you have not been able to take all the holiday you have built up before your job ends, you have the right to pay instead of the untaken holiday. Your employer should pay you for all the holiday you have built up. If you have an agreement with your employer, which says how much pay you will get instead of untaken holiday, you may get the amount in this agreement. If your agreement with your employer does not say how much pay you should get, the rules on how much pay you should get for untaken holiday are complicated and you should seek further advice.

Your employer may refuse to pay you for untaken holiday if you are leaving or have left your job. If you are in this situation you can enforce your right to pay for untaken holiday at an employment tribunal. If you are in this situation you may have to raise a written grievance with your employer first.

For more information about grievances, in England, Wales and Scotland, see Resolving disputes at work and in Northern Ireland, see Dealing with grievances, dismissal and disciplinary action at work.

If you are in this situation, you should seek the help of an experienced adviser, for example, at a Citizens Advice Bureau. You should contact a CAB as soon as possible, as there is a time limit for making claims to employment tribunals. To search for details of your nearest CAB, including those that can give advice by email, click on (New window) nearest CAB.

If you owe holiday when you leave your job

Go for it frump!

[DJKillaQueen]

That seems pretty clear to me that you are not obliged to use up you annual leave before your end date. I'll see if I can find any legislation document on that in law....

[frump]

Wow Ladymuck, that's very helpful. I'm so grateful.

[frump]

And thanks to DJKillaQueen too!

[Ladymuck]

No worries frump - I used to be an employment law specialist up until around 3 years ago. Very satisfying it was too. I got used to employers' attempts at pulling the wool over their employees' eyes...and the more badly they treated their employees the more aggressive I got LOL! I usually won on behalf of my clients!

[DJKillaQueen]

Frump you can try giving these people a call too for advice....

ACAS

Free advice line giving employment law advice

Telephone: 0845 747 47 47

Minicom:08456 06 16 00

www.acas.org.uk

[DJKillaQueen]

Ok I can find nothing in law that says you must take the annual leave before your end date, only that your employer must pay you for untaken leave (so you will likely be due a little more money than you were expecting in your final payment). And I think they probably know this hence asking you if you intended to take unused leave in the first place.

The downside is that you may well have to take them to tribunal if they refuse to pay up.

Oh and to say check your original contract of employment too...but if it is 20 years old it may well not be up to date with current employment laws anyway.

[frump]

Have just spoken to ACAS! Very helpful and straightforward advice. Looks like I'm taking out a Grievance tomorrow which they will ignore if they remain as predictable as I imagine, but will be there if it goes to tribunal. Apparently the employer needs to give twice the length of notice to days to be taken to employee ie if they want me to take 2 weeks leave, they have to give 4 weeks notice, so to take 4 days leave they must give 8 days notice which they have done, as I only work 3 days a week this may translate to nearly 3 weeks notice which is almost what they have done, not by design I am sure. None of this is statutory apparently so I have to argue that what they want me to do is contrary to my 2 professional registrations codes of conduct eg letting down vulnerable people when you fancy having 4 days off with no warning.

So thanks for the ACAS advice, the helpline was brilliant, I had not thought about a Grievance and am now twitching to put it in writing for tomorrow!

[DJKillaQueen]

I am so pleased that you've some help. Just goes to show that it's worth posting....

Let us know how you get on...

[frump]

I certainly will let you know.

Bye

[Ladymuck]

Good luck frump.

[frump]

Triumph....they agreed yesterday, after a very unpleasant exchange of e mails, to pay my outstanding leave in lieu.

thanks again to DJKillaQueen and Ladymuck. Your response was really helpful, kind and encouraging.

have a lovely weekend.

[Ladymuck]

Ahhh...FABULOUS!!! I am so, so pleased for you (I am sure the Queen will be too).

Well done - and good luck to you.

Hope this experience will encourage you to brave posting on this Forum some more.

[DJKillaQueen]

That's brilliant news......well done.