A fair society ...

[Mick Mac]

What's your understanding of a fair society and how its achieved.

With today's announcement of child benefit being withdrawn for higher rate taxpayers being just one issue focussing peoples' minds on "fairness". What's fair about children of higher earners not getting child benefit, whilst these people pay most into the tax system?

[Pearson]

What's fair about children of higher earners not getting child benefit, whilst these people pay most into the tax system?

Probably because they would have to pay less tax if it wasn't being taken by people who could actually afford to do without it?

[waynetta]

WELL-TO-DO middle and upper class people. Avoid the feelings of guilt due to your privileged lifestyle by going to church regularly and prescribing to a doctrine based upon one or other interpretation of certain parts of the bible. Simply re-interpret - or completely ignore - any parts of the bible which are incompatible with your own lifestyle of greed and affluence.

[Pearson]

What the heck has god got to do with the OP? or being well-to-do middle & upper-class??

[DJKillaQueen]

I don't think we can ever have a system that is totally fair whilst life isn't fair. Only an accident of birth decides if you get a public school education or a state school one for example.

Tonight I watched the second 'Titantic' programme where they rebuild a piece of the Titanic. This week it was the anchor. The programme's brilliance is the insight it gives into life in industrial Britain. A life that was awful for those working in the mills, mines, factories, foundries. Most people had to work to eat, and had no life outside of that work only to die young from the various hazards that working in those industries exposed them to. There was no fairness there.

So for me, any question of fairness is more than about salary and taxation. We don't have a world where effort and talent are rewarded in equal measure and statistically, if born into poverty, a person is more likely to stay in poverty than escape it. A lot of the highest earners are vastly overpaid for what they do and it seems absolutely right that as a society we are not afriad to challenge that.

[Pearson]

My god.

- A lot of the highest earners are vastly overpaid for what they do and it seems absolutely right that as a society we are not afriad to challenge that.

I actually agree with you!

[DJKillaQueen]

lol (tu)

[RosieH]

Talent isn't fair. It's an accident of birth as much as wealth or beauty or brains - and arguably so might be drive and motivation (although that's speculation).

[Pearson]

So with regards to the OP, are you saying it is fair that wealthier folk should be entitled to child benefit?

[Loz]

Mick Mac Wrote:

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> What's your understanding of a fair society and

> how its achieved.

Free hair bleach on the NHS.

[Tarot]

Sounds like one of those jokes, that begin "THe good news first, we are cutting benifits to the affluent families," Now for the bad news We are cutting all unworking class benifits. Wait and see,

[dita-on-tees]

I think high earners as a concept would sit a lot easier with me if those people really were the genuine and remarkable talent in this country, but that isnt always the case. I have worked with many people who are where they are only through the advantages they were given through birth, not through talent and not even hard work. Many have no idea how privileged or 'lucky' they are. It is remarkably frustrating and disheartening to work with people who are earning 100k+ with the overwhelming sentiment that in a genuine meritocracy they simply would not be there. Financial reward aside, my concern is that geniunely bright, innovative people slip through the net because of birth, circumstance and lack of social mobility, and the higher paid profession continue to be rammed with very well educated but remarkably mediocre people. I know we can all identify 'working class done good', as it were, but it infuriates me it has to be such a battle for some people and not for others. I can live with the fact that not everyone is born with an equal measure of talent, that cannot be changed, what I cannot accept is that social circumstance, which can be changed, dictates who can use their talent.

[SeanMacGabhann]

The tax system is not some kind of piggybank. To be paying a lot into it means you are one of life's winners already

[woofmarkthedog]

Remember...

Some pigs are more equal than others

( which is fair enough )

W**F

[Emerson Crane]

To be honest if I was fortunate enough to earn over ?100k a year, not getting child benfit would be the least of my worries. Regrettably life isn't fair. When I get off the train in the morning feeling like the world is against me, and then walk past some poor sod sleeping in a door way, I suddenly realise how lucky I am after all.

[Keef]

Someone is always going to lose out, and there will be people just over the threshold who lose out. That's a shame, but at the end of the day, they'll live.

People on high incomes do not need child benefit.

We get it, and it's nice to have. We'll probably lose it if these plans go ahead, but it won't put us out on the streets. Will be sorry to lose it, but at the end of the day, I'd rather that than see a lot of other cuts that could be made instead! Besides, I'm sure the poor will suffer too, once a few more cuts are announced.

What's fair about children of higher earners not getting child benefit, whilst these people pay most into the tax system?

Tax is tax, why should I pay for anyone's benefits? Why should I pay for someone to have heart surgery? Why should I pay for people to go to war?

Because, I live and work here, and am very pleased that if I need heart surgery one day, I'll be able to get it on the NHS.

[Mick Mac]

SeanMacGabhann Wrote:

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> >

> The tax system is not some kind of piggybank. To

> be paying a lot into it means you are one of

> life's winners already

It is a piggy bank / pot of money / numbers in the Chancellors budget model, call it what you like.

Its not a personal piggy bank, but it is money received for the benefit of all people in the UK.

A balance needs to be struck and govt has to consider the needs of those whose need is greatest and most deserving.

Saying all the "right" things and "those who earn more pay more" is all a bit of a yawn to be honest.

There is a stage at which the balance sways too far in favour of those who do not make little or no contribution to society in financial form or otherwise.

The tories are addressing this imbalance. Thankfully. Whilst hopefully ensuring deserving causes do not suffer.

I have no problem with this particular measure at all. But the concept of fairness should consider all in society not just the worse off.

of course to extract the maximum from higher earners to throw at underserving causes would not be "fair" to high earners.

To think of the concept of fairness by considering only the less well off in society is narrow.

[Emerson Crane]

Mick Mac Wrote:

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> SeanMacGabhann Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> To think of the concept of fairness by considering

> only the less well off in society is narrow.

But surely the less well off are in most need of assistance, no?

[*Bob*]

Where would you like to see the balance of fairness, Mick?

Say, your child benefit paid in full - and maybe 5% off the top rate?

[DJKillaQueen]

But what is an underserving cause Mac? Because all I see is that the privileged are more easily able to get on in life whilst the most diasadvantaged stay poor. In fact unless the Conservatives do something to improve the options for upward mobility they are doing nothing to address any imbalance. I'm not holding out for asignificant raise in minimum wage soon for example...something the Conservatives were bitterly opposed to in any form remember. Oh and just what imbalance was being addressed when Sheffield Forgemasters had their grant taken away. Meanwhile the recession is over for the banking industry.

[The Minkey]

What was fair about giving people money just because they've got children when they aren't actually in need?

[katie1997]

SeanMacGabhann Wrote:

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> >

> The tax system is not some kind of piggybank. To

> be paying a lot into it means you are one of

> life's winners already

Sean - you're right, its not a piggybank but ...

to be paying a lot into it does also include those members of society who have worked very, very hard to be in that position. Not everyone is born a winner, some work at it against the odds.

Depending on what country you are born in you could say the same that we are all life's winners living with the privileges that can sometimes be taken for granted.

[SeanMacGabhann]

DJKQ ? you are addressing Mockney who I don?t think has contributed to this thread

Katie ? I would consider myself one of the people who, along with circumstance and some luck, has worked hard to get a decent job. As long as I have that decent job then I am happy to be paying more in taxes.

Back when I did 2 jobs and still had no money I didn?t look at people in good jobs and think ?oooh they look a bit stressed out what with working hard and paying more taxes?

What I did think was ?they look very relaxed and comfortable and untroubled by where the rent is coming from?

It is possible for many many people to work far harder than those on 40k plus and have next to nothing. In fact that is the lot of the majority. So to hear people say they are bored of hearing it or think they are being hard done by really hacks me off

[*Bob*]

In the same way that 'having money' boosts your rich-o-meter exponentially, 'having none' has the same effect - in the opposite direction. And it's not just a matter of money.

The richer you are, the more that government, society.. life in general.. is on your side. Society cuts you slack, big-time. You get away with it. But if your chips are down and you haven't got a pot to piss in, you get pissed on instead - at the drop of a hat.

In short, if you're a top-rate taxpayer then 'fairness' in life has very little to do with a couple of grand that you're only going to put towards a skiing holiday anyway.

[DJKillaQueen]

DJKQ ? you are addressing Mockney who I don?t think has contributed to this thread

lol you are quite right...will edit to address the right poster! oops ......