Faith schools

[louisiana]

Some say faith schools produce 'better results' in one way or another.

At the Conservative conference, the deputy head of a Camberwell Church of England Academy made this speech.

There was a related article in the Standard.

Latest Ofsted report

[taper]

Doesn't the evidence show that when the nature of fath schools' intake is taken into account the "better results" are shown to be related to that rather than any sort of divine intervention? I think the extistence of faith schools is the most reprehensible aspect of our education system. Something like 1/3 of southwark schools are allowed to discriminate on the basis of a child's parent's religion.

[Emerson Crane]

taper Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Doesn't the evidence show that when the nature of

> fath schools' intake is taken into account the

> "better results" are shown to be related to that

> rather than any sort of divine intervention? I

> think the extistence of faith schools is the most

> reprehensible aspect of our education system.

> Something like 1/3 of southwark schools are

> allowed to discriminate on the basis of a child's

> parent's religion.

Good point, well made.

[lozzyloz]

[pre]

Something like 1/3 of southwark schools are allowed to discriminate on the basis of a child's parent's religion.

[/pre]

That's not strictly true taper. I'm an atheist, Mrs LL is agnostic and none of our children are christened, baptised etc but do attend a faith school. No discrimination there and despite the backing of the CofE (which I admit I'm not totally comfortable with) they do educate children about other faiths.

[louisiana]

If this

"Sixty teenage boys at St Michael and All Angels academy in Camberwell were on a police watchlist for gang involvement, a former teacher said."

and this

"Police figures show 21 criminal allegations at the school in the past academic year including five of actual bodily harm, two of common assault, a rape, burglary, threats to kill and possession of a knife and offensive weapon."

are true, then the Ofsted report seems like an amazing exercise in understatement, carefully avoiding the elephants in the room.

[silverfox]

Taper said:

"... I think the extistence of faith schools is the most reprehensible aspect of our education system. Something like 1/3 of southwark schools are allowed to discriminate on the basis of a child's parent's religion."

At least this is a different tack from the usual bleating on this forum about objecting to taxes subsidising these schools. However, if you find their existence reprehensible and do not agree with them, why would you want to send your children there? In short, how are you possibly being discriminated against?

[david_carnell]

I would imagine because these may be, academically, very good schools achieving good results.

Yet due to ones beliefs, or lack of them, parents and their children are actively discriminated against.

As Dawkins says, there is no such thing as a Christian or a Muslim child. Merely a child with Christian or Muslim parents who hasn't been allowed to think for themselves.

[taper]

"Why would you want to send your children there?"

I wouldn't and I can't in good faith (as it were). So I'm ruled out of sending my child to 1/3 of local schools. Is that right, particualrly when the better schools do tend to be faith schools (7 out of the top 10 performing primaries in Southwark are faith schools)?

I happen to think that, as with hospitals, state schools should exist to serve all children equally according to their need. I've never understood why people baulk so much about selecting according to ability, but most seem relaxed about selecting according to a parent's faith. I know some schools like St Johns are pretty relaxed about this, but schools such as St Anthony's have hair-raising selection criteria.

It genuinely leaves me aghast. We need an entirely secular education system.

[Ridgley]

Its all about choice, as a parent myself you want what is best for your child whether it is faith or secular school as my child comes from a Jewish and a Christian background I will leave it up to her to decided her faith when she is older.

[PeckhamRose]

The British Humanist Association's take on it, and what it is trying to do to make things fairer.

Just in case anyone is interested!

[Senor Chevalier]

Yep - it's an outrage that faith can be used as an exclusion criteria for state funded education. The Dawkins "Age of Reason - Faith School Menace" programme shown on TV recently was excellent. He managed to put some very cogent arguements across (and also managed to come across as a bit of a t055er as usual).

[silverfox]

Surely faith schools are representative of society's mix? Society isn't a homogeneous secular mix but is made up of people with different creeds - hence faith schools. I don't feel discriminated against because there are Muslim or Jewish schools that may not admit my child.

Even if the social engineers abolished faith schools there would still be 'discrimination' by fee paying schools being beyond the reach of many, or state schools that are outside your catchment area - is this discrimination by postcode? Having a totally secular schooling system will still result in inequality of standards.

[DJKillaQueen]

My view is that there should be no place for religious faith in schools (morality and history yes but religious dogma no)......and many parents do send their children to faith schools as an extension of impressing their own religious beliefs on their children. Standards of education are not dependent on or determined by faith.

[Jeremy]

If people want to practise mumbo-jumbo and mythology that's fine with me, but it absolutely should not be intertwined with the education system. It's completely, utterly wrong.

The current situation - whereby parents pretend to believe the aforementioned mumbo-jumbo in order to get their children into the best performing schools - is absurb on every level.

[Senor Chevalier]

Yes in the way that BUPA is discriminatory against poor people. I tell you what, while we're at it let's have faith based hospitals that are state funded, so to get any treatment a patient or his/her family needs to subscribe to a certain set of beliefs. As opposed to... members of the public (who have afterall funded all the hospitals) being able to choose freely from hospitals on the basis of proximity and speciality. You're right - it's not disciminatory at all, because you can just go to the Jedi hospital a mere 10 miles away where they treat your sort..

Children with religeous parents can and do choose between faith and non-faith schools based on which offers the best education. Parents who are not religeous get to choose between non-faith schools and the hypocrisy of faking it.

Aside from faith schools not being fair on those they exclude, they are also unfair on those they include as they present a certain view on life based on the beliefs of the parents which the child has no say in.

Struggling to see the upside for anyone.

[silverfox]

If "... parents pretend to believe the aforementioned mumbo-jumbo in order to get their children into the best performing schools..." then, yes it is wrong. However, if parents believe the mumbo-jumbo why is that wrong? There are plenty of believers who can't get their children into some of the best faith schools for the simple reason they are oversubscribed.

Secularisation has plenty of mombo jumbo of its own. Faith schools exist because we live in a democracy. Where everybody is fed the same line that's usually found in totalitarian states.

[Keef]

The current situation - whereby parents pretend to believe the aforementioned mumbo-jumbo in order to get their children into the best performing schools - is absurb on every level.

Totally agree with the gist of this point.

With regards to the argument that you're excluded from 1/3 of schools if you're not religious, surely it could be argued that you have 2/3 of schools open to you, whilst a religious person only has 1/3 to choose from.

I'm not particularly pro or anti faith schhols, but I do find that some of the arguments against them are a lot better than others.

[mockney piers]

I'm guessing the Jehova's Witness Hospital has dreadful A&E stats.

[DJKillaQueen]

Faith schools exist because we live in a democracy.

That's fine until you get to the postion where creationism is being taught over evolution for example (not happening in this country I think but others yes). So there are absolutely very good grounds for saying that religious dogma should not ever be part of education....no more than we teach other things at junior level, that involve shaping biased view points.

[louisiana]

silverfox Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> If "... parents pretend to believe the

> aforementioned mumbo-jumbo in order to get their

> children into the best performing schools..."

> then, yes it is wrong. However, if parents believe

> the mumbo-jumbo why is that wrong? There are

> plenty of believers who can't get their children

> into some of the best faith schools for the simple

> reason they are oversubscribed.

>

> Secularisation has plenty of mombo jumbo of its

> own. Faith schools exist because we live in a

> democracy. Where everybody is fed the same line

> that's usually found in totalitarian states.

Maybe you haven't grasped what secular means. To apply secular criteria means to exclude *all forms of mumbo-jumbo*. All. There is no "line'.

We may live in a democracy, but that doesn't mean all should have to *pay* for your child to be inculcated with a set of beliefs akin to magic (just as I should not have to foot the bill for me to have my child forcibly inculcated with same: religous assemblies are still very much a legal obligation in this country).

Surely you should pay for all that yourself, if you wish to have it. A democracy merely gives you the right to do so, from your own pocket.

[Keef]

That's fine until you get to the postion where creationism is being taught over evolution for example (not happening in this country I think but others yes).

It was happening here. I saw a programme a couple of years back about an academy school in Middlesbrough. They were telling their kids "this is what you need to write in your exam papers, but this is what really happened".

As I say, I have no strong feelings against faith schools, but stuff like that is just wrong.

[louisiana]

As the OP, maybe I should remind peeps that the original point of this post was to draw attention to this stunningly poor 'faith school' in our borough, not a couple of miles from our front doors.

[silverfox]

While I would agree that this bunch of born again creationists are misguided it hardly constitutes a threat against society - if anything it stimulates debate. And it will be interesting to compare some of the new schools that arise under Michael Gove's plans where groups of parents set up schools/home learning. I dread to think what those kids will be taught by those biased parents.

Far more damaging to society, I would argue, have been the secular and left-wing views that brought in comprehensive education in the 70s and 80s that condemned a generation of children to substandard education for ideological reasons.

The reason faith schools exist is because state education has been constantly tinkered with by well-meaning but misguided fools all in the name of equality and secularisation.

[PeckhamRose]

I believe England's first school to teach creationism as a 'fact' opened in the west country? Can't remember now but I think it was on the British Humanist Association's website last year.

[Senor Chevalier]

Ooh - let's set up a "free school" and then we can incuclate our little angels to our hearts' content. We could hire the teacher from the school in Camberwell, though it probably wouldn't be gnarly enough...