Lordship Lane through history but type in your own searches

[PeckhamRose]

I typed in Lordship Lane and it has given these results but you could type in loads of places and not just London. However, I was delighted to find a picture of my own block of flats in construction in 1938 (which means I have lived in it for nearly half it's life)

http://collage.cityoflondon.gov.uk/quick-search?q=lordship%20lane&WINID=1484401438784

AGH I see many of the results are also of North London's LL! Sorry!

[intexasatthe moment]

Oh no ,no ,no that's hours already I've spent looking at these .

Just finished looking at the Peckham Rye Estate and comparing the pics to google earth .How the trees have grown . How the post box has been replaced by a newer one .How little the blocks have changed .Though I wonder why the fencing was changed for the metal "stretcher " type .

Off to look at Bellenden Rd /Choumert Rd junction now .May never have time for cooking again .

[rendelharris]

intexasatthe moment Wrote:

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Though I wonder why the fencing was

> changed for the metal "stretcher " type .

Presumably, like many other railings, they were removed during WWII to be melted down for munitions etc, then replaced with the surplus to requirements stretchers post-war.

[edhistory]

rendelharris Wrote:

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> Presumably, like many other railings, they were

> removed during WWII to be melted down for

> munitions etc, then replaced with the surplus to

> requirements stretchers post-war.

The conclusion is a big "presume".

Is there any evidence?

[edhistory]

This one has been is my probable mis-attribution file for some time.

The LMA has it as an 1860 picture by Mandy of the junction of Lordship Lane and Dulwich Common.

How can this be so?

http://collage.cityoflondon.gov.uk/view-item?key=SXsiUCI6eyJ2YWx1ZSI6ImxvcmRzaGlwIGxhbmUiLCJvcGVyYXRvciI6MSwiZnV6enlQcmVmaXhMZW5ndGgiOjMsImZ1enp5TWluU2ltaWxhcml0eSI6MC43NSwibWF4U3VnZ2VzdGlvbnMiOjMsImFsd2F5c1N1Z2dlc3QiOm51bGx9fQ&pg=7&WINID=1484473631354#F3spwUYhVYAAAAFZoQL9ZA/18074

[rendelharris]

edhistory Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> rendelharris Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

>

> > Presumably, like many other railings, they were

> > removed during WWII to be melted down for

> > munitions etc, then replaced with the surplus

> to

> > requirements stretchers post-war.

>

>

> The conclusion is a big "presume".

>

> Is there any evidence?

No evidence at all, but the balance of probabilities would seem to indicate that if a building had iron railings pre-WWII which then disappeared and were replaced with post-WWII stretchers, that's what's likely to have happened, given that many hundreds of tons of London's railings were removed in the early '40s as part of the war effort (an initiative more valuable as propaganda than in any substantive way,as it turned out).

[craigyboy71]

I found this picture of Upland Road in the past... the view is from the junction with Hindmans Road looking towards Barry Road. The Church has gone now.

[doogsey]

edhistory Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> This one has been is my probable mis-attribution

> file for some time.

>

> The LMA has it as an 1860 picture by Mandy of the

> junction of Lordship Lane and Dulwich Common.

>

> How can this be so?

>

>

> http://collage.cityoflondon.gov.uk/view-item?key=S

> XsiUCI6eyJ2YWx1ZSI6ImxvcmRzaGlwIGxhbmUiLCJvcGVyYXR

> vciI6MSwiZnV6enlQcmVmaXhMZW5ndGgiOjMsImZ1enp5TWluU

> 2ltaWxhcml0eSI6MC43NSwibWF4U3VnZ2VzdGlvbnMiOjMsImF

> sd2F5c1N1Z2dlc3QiOm51bGx9fQ&pg=7&WINID=14844736313

> 54#F3spwUYhVYAAAAFZoQL9ZA/18074

Could it be looking south from the Hayes Grove area towards Grove Vale, Goose Green and Lordship Lane?

[mikeb]

From the shadows, seems more likely looking North-east

[ianr]

> The LMA has it as an 1860 picture by Mandy of the junction of Lordship Lane and Dulwich Common.

The search thumbnail is annotated:

"Record: 8107 Dulwich/Camberwell

View of Court Lane and Lordship lane, Dulwich; also showing cattle grazing and horse-drawn vehicles passsing on the road. 1860"

But I don't see that as any better a match.

The only possibility I can see in that area, looking at the 1862 Stanfords maphttp://collage.cityoflondon.gov.uk/view-item?key=SXsiUCI6eyJ2YWx1ZSI6IlN0YW5mb3JkJ3MgbWFwIER1bHdpY2giLCJvcGVyYXRvciI6MSwiZnV6enlQcmVmaXhMZW5ndGgiOjMsImZ1enp5TWluU2ltaWxhcml0eSI6MC43NSwibWF4U3VnZ2VzdGlvbnMiOjMsImFsd2F5c1N1Z2dlc3QiOm51bGx9fQ&pg=1&WINID=1484529722599#0yb4LPaDpY8AAAFZpKMCfw/31499, is perhaps the junction of Dulwich Common with Bark Lane (now Gallery Road). That would seem to make the large central house one of the C19 manifestations of Belair House, but I'm far from convinced of that, afaics from the 1890 photograph of its rear: the first at http://collage.cityoflondon.gov.uk/quick-search?q=Belair&WINID=1484528532947. It is in the right place though. Playing around with http://www.suncalc.org/#/51.4425,-0.0779,21/2016.08.17/16:48/1 and taking a shadow length multiplier of 1.64 would I think place the viewing bearing more likely to be in the NNW area, depending on time of year.

[ETA 16/1 01:29 to say I've changed my mind already, after having a look at the 1870 OS map. The orientation of the house is wrong, so unless the artist has taken a liberty so as to show its frontage...]

[edhistory]

This is said to be a photo of the Court Lane toll gate cottage.

[rendelharris]

Sheer guesswork really but couldn't this be painted at what was Glenroy's Corner - now known as the Grove Tavern junction - looking west towards Dulwich along Dulwich Common Road? The road has the correct turn downhill to the right there. That would make what looks like a pathway in front of the washing line (?) of the building on the left the start of Cox's Walk. In the centre of the picture the road appears to fork: there's no road there now but on the 1862 map there's a road running that way off Dulwich Common to "Grove House," which, if it were painted from the Grove Tavern junction, would be in about the right place for the large central house. Unfortunately I can't find any information on or images of Grove House, anyone else have any?

[steveo]

edhistory Wrote:

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> This is said to be a photo of the Court Lane toll

> gate cottage.

Which it isn't. What about this one?

[bargee99]

Edhistory, I think it is a picture taken standing in front of the Dulwich College tollgate looking up the road that leads to towards Dulwich and Sydenham golf course. The tollgate itself would be just out of shot to the right.

[mikeb]

Good call. Lamppost even seems to be in same position.

[kford]

Re: the 1860 print:

This is looking down Court Lane from Lordship Lane.

From here:

It's also mentioned here:

http://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-court-lane-and-lordship-lane-dulwich-london-1860-artist-jc-mandy-60105803.html

[rendelharris]

kford Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Re: the 1860 print:

>

> This is looking down Court Lane from Lordship

> Lane.

>

> From here:

>

> on+SE21+7DR/@51.4461755,-0.0717924,3a,60y,300.1h,8

> 7.87t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sOXknaaWyMI9ZrPizaKvmcg!2

> e0!7i13312!8i6656!4m5!3m4!1s0x487603ec4e5a2701:0xb

> fb4cf990d207b45!8m2!3d51.4483489!4d-0.0783488!6m1!

> 1e1?hl=en&authuser=0

>

> It's also mentioned here:

>

> http://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-court-lane-and-lo

> rdship-lane-dulwich-london-1860-artist-jc-mandy-60

> 105803.html

Old Handy must have been a rotten painter then, as s/he clearly shows the road curving down to the right then going slightly uphill into the distance - whereas I know, as it's one of my favourite local take a breather freewheels, that Court Lane runs downhill all the way into Dulwich, 72 feet of descent, 0 ascent!

[kford]

Agree, but could LL have been built up for the tramlines? Also, the grand building in the background is similar to the Georgian buildings around the Crown & Greyhound in Dulwich Village.

[mikeb]

Where's the "tollbar" building shown here?

http://www.motco.com/map/81006/SeriesSearchPlatesFulla.asp?mode=query&artist=390&other=941&x=11&y=11

[rendelharris]

mikeb Wrote:

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> Where's the "tollbar" building shown here?

> http://www.motco.com/map/81006/SeriesSearchPlatesF

> ulla.asp?mode=query&artist=390&other=941&x=11&y=11

Assume, and the better informed may be able to confirm or deny, that the top of Court Lane marks the outer boundary of the Dulwich estate, so one had to pay a toll to enter onto its roads, as is still the case on College Road, so the Tollbar building would have been the lodging for the keeper of the tollgate?

[mikeb]

I meant where is itvon the picture?

[rendelharris]

mikeb Wrote:

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> I meant where is itvon the picture?

Sorry, misunderstood - good point!

[edhistory]

Just to clarify:

"East Dulwich" had two toll gate cottages.

One on Dog Kennel Hill which was demolished to make way for the trams.

One at the junction of Court Lane and Lordship Lane. That's the one I uploaded a photo of. It seems to have had an unusual footprint. The map(s) show it as cruciform. The photo looks octagonal, but closer examination suggest cruciform.

If Dog Kennel Hill had a toll gate it was out of operation by 1858. See incorrect map from the Illustrated London News from 6 June 1857.

The Court Lane toll gate and cottage were on Dulwich College Land. The map which does not show Court Lane, has the tollgate as still operational. Eynella Road and Townley Road did not exist in the 1850s.

[edhistory]

Dog Kennel Hill toll gate cottage.

[rendelharris]

So, as per mikeb's good spot above, if the painting under discussion is of the Court Lane/Lordship Lane junction, where are the tollgate and the cottage?