Poor transport links: any one else thinking of fleeing East Dulwich?

[Ampersand]

Totally agree with treehugger above. Takes me 35-40 minutes on a bicycle from Wood Vale to Fitzrovia at a rather sedate pace down the surrey canal path and through Burgess Park. If you're getting sweaty either you are going really fast or doing it wrong.

[taper]

I don't think you need to shower at work when cycling. I shower before I set off. Bit moist when I arrive at work. But a quick toot of Febreeze and I'm fresh as a daisy.

The overground from Honor Oak Park or Forest Hill is good. Packed, but you can get on; including at peak time (c8am). Then off at London Bridge or Canada water for the tube if you need to get central. I get off at Southwark and walk over Blackfriars.

[geobz]

titch juicy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> geobz Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > titch juicy Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> > -----

> > > geobz Wrote:

> > >

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> >

> > > -----

> > > > Otta Wrote:

> > > >

> > >

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> >

> > >

> > > > -----

> > > > > JohnL Wrote:

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> >

> > >

> > > >

> > > > > -----

> > > > >

> > > > > > 1 Hour isn't good - we should be

> talking

> > > > 30-40

> > > > > > minutes.:)

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Did you know that government guidelines

> on

> > > best

> > > > > practice say that children up to the age

> of

> > 8

> > > > > (with special educational needs)

> shouldn't

> > > have

> > > > > school journeys lasting more than 45

> > minutes.

> > > > Over

> > > > > 8s it's an hour. These guidelines have

> been

> > > > around

> > > > > forever (well decades).

> > > > >

> > > > > So I think an hour to work is perfectly

> > > > acceptable

> > > > > for a working adult :)

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > The issue is that your not an hour away

> from

> > > the

> > > > City. The transportation links are poor.

> > > >

> > > > I often walk from ED to Oxford Street,

> > doesn't

> > > > take me more than 1h20m to get there.

> > > >

> > > > So yes I think a bus that does 1hour

> against

> > > > walking 1hour and 20 minutes is an issue.

> > > >

> > > > And southern isn't running most of the

> time,

> > > and

> > > > the timeschedules are way off... you don't

> > get

> > > > trains every 10 minutes anymore apart from

> > > > 8:10,20,30, everything else is every 20-30

> > > > minutes... thats awful and it feels like

> you

> > > are

> > > > living out of town. Also on weekends you

> get

> > > > reduced services and Sundays you'll barely

> > find

> > > > the station open.

> > > >

> > > > Commuting from ED is BAD! Stop trying to

> > > convince

> > > > yourself that its alright.

> > >

> > > The thing is, those trains that run every 20

> > > minutes are never full, so why would they put

> > more

> > > on?

> >

> > Because thats why am paying taxes for? and on

> top

> > ticket fare?

> >

> > Whats next? because the every 20 minutes are

> not

> > full change them to every hour? The reason of

> > living in a zone2 area is that you should have

> > fast and easy access to the Center.

> >

> > 40minutes commute for 5 miles worth of travel

> is

> > so third world!

>

>

> Unless you live somewhere with the tube- best of

> luck.

>

> Oh, and how does paying your taxes have anything

> to do with private rail companies?

I dont care about the privatisation of the Train line. Thats up to the Gov. The gov though has to provide me with links to London and that comes from my taxes. The deal that the Gov made with private companies to run the lines was specific and Southern is not a company that has kept its part of the deal.

Everytime you get a refund online because a Southernfail train was delayed or cancelled, it comes out of Gov's money which eventually comes from my taxes.

What about the ?20m that Gov threw away on Southernfail during Summer to improve the service? Isn't that coming from my tax money?

Generally speaking it doesn't mean that since Govia/Southern is a private company can do whatever it wants with the schedule. The Gov provides the guidelines for the service and Govia bids that its going to follow the schedule and provide that service. The deal was trains every 10 minutes on peak and 15minutes non-peak. That hasn't been followed by Southernfail using as an excuse the London Bridge revamp.

Btw I don't even know why am trying to make sense to you, you'r the guy that said if you kick someone on the shin no matter of his size he will go down... lol.

[JohnL]

Today caught the 63 for the first time in a few weeks.

Get to Blackfriars road and that's it - traffic not moving so everyone gets off and walks.

It's exercise anyway :)

[geobz]

Jeremy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Walk from ED to the City in an hour? Don't think

> so. You might get from Goose Green to Elephant in

> an hour...

Jeremy sorry to say that, but not everyone living in ED is a grandpa. If you cant take your feet and walk thats just you.

ED train to PC is 4.6miles and suggested to be 1h36m walk by google maps which is taking into account the grandpa factor you got.

So use facts and stop just saying things because you "think"... I walk it every weekend, maybe you should try too, good for your heart.

Btw I wrote: 1hour and 20 minutes walk on my original post just to be clear which is completely valid.

[JohnL]

Ampersand Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Totally agree with treehugger above. Takes me

> 35-40 minutes on a bicycle from Wood Vale to

> Fitzrovia at a rather sedate pace down the surrey

> canal path and through Burgess Park. If you're

> getting sweaty either you are going really fast or

> doing it wrong.

Or you're unfit. i got sweaty playing table tennis last week :(

[JohnL]

taper Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I don't think you need to shower at work when

> cycling. I shower before I set off. Bit moist

> when I arrive at work. But a quick toot of

> Febreeze and I'm fresh as a daisy.

>

Isn't that for carpets :0

[Siduhe]

JohnL Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Today caught the 63 for the first time in a few

> weeks.

> Get to Blackfriars road and that's it - traffic

> not moving so everyone gets off and walks.

>

> It's exercise anyway :)

Yup, that's what I do now (as a long time 363/63 bus user). Bus to E&C. 22-28 min walk (depending on how windy it is) across Blackfriars to work. It's an hour door to door (I have to walk to the 63 stop), but I can pretty much guarantee my time of arrival at work and I get a bit of exercise.

I've given up on peak time trains from Peckham Rye into Blackfriars - I will get the 10.04 if I'm heading into the office late for some reason.

[Jeremy]

geobz Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> ED train to PC is 4.6miles and suggested to be

> 1h36m walk by google maps which is taking into

> account the grandpa factor you got.

I used to live quite near East Dulwich station, and the walk to Moorgate was 1hr 30 at a decent pace. So probably 1:20 to Bank. Once you get to London Bridge, things slow down a lot with the crowds of people, and lots of roads to cross.

Also bear in mind that most people living in East Dulwich proper will probably be a bit of a walk south of ED station (the station is almost on the Camberwell border) so you can probably add another 10 minutes for that.

Oh.. and it's OK to disagree with each other, but you don't need to be quite so rude (I was a little short in my initial response to rendel, and I apologise...)

[BrandNewGuy]

I've walked into work the last two days. Live near Dulwich Hospital, work 5 mins from LB and it takes 1 hr 10 mins at a reasonable pace through the sunny back streets of Camberwell and Walworth. And I'm a far from fit middle-aged fella :-)

[rendelharris]

Not at all Jeremy, you were right to point out my over-optimistic estimate, and yes there is no need for geobz to be rude and ageist. Goose Green to Elephant is 2.86 miles so an hour would be about spot on for most.

[DulwichLondoner]

@rendelharris, the one gym near my office only accepts annual memberships; I don't remember the exact price (>?1k), but I remember it was more expensive than an annual oyster pass.

As for showering, if you are lucky enough not to need one, I envy you. I sweat. A lot. Even cycling at a moderate pace.

The fact that speed limits do not technically apply to cyclists (which is wrong, IMHO) does not mean they cannot be fined for dangerous cycling if they are too fast http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/10/26/banker-who-cycles-to-work-to-relieve-stress-leads-police-on-20-m/

Thank you for explaining your commute to the City. I was wrong assuming a commute to the City. The commute to Mayfair is a different story, though. The segregated cycle lane is only from Oval to Vauxhall, plus on Vauxhall Bridge, where going north I on the motorcycle have access to the bus lane. In fact, I have access to most bus lanes on the route, except that from Denmark Hill to King's College Hospital. On park lane going north, where the speed limit is 40mph and there are few traffic lights, I am substantially faster than a cyclist in Hyde park or in one of the parallel roads. I see cyclists in my lane, too, but riding a pushbike uphill on a street with a 40mph limit doesn't seem particularly wise to me.

As for accidents on pushbikes vs motorbikes, I explained my thinking previously, but let me elaborate.

First of all, comparisons should be made on a like-for-like basis. What does "London" mean? Does it include A roads and motorways which cyclists cannot access, on which speed limits are > 30mph, etc? A collision at 70mph on the M25 is likely to be more serious than an off at 10 mph in an urban road, but cyclists cannot access roads where the speed limit is 70.

A comparison should be done on routes which are similar; adding routes which cyclists cannot access skews the results.

Also, how comparable is the use of pushbikes vs motorbikes?

If motorbikes are used more than pushbikes with 'adverse weather conditions' which make the road more dangerous, it is not surprising that motorcyclists suffer more accidents.

If motorbikes are used for longer commutes than bicycles, then of course motorcyclists will suffer from more accidents.

Also, what are the causes of these accidents? When a cyclist dies because he decided to undertake a big bus which was turning left, it's not because bicycles per se are dangerous: it's because he was an idiot and what happened was Darwinian selection. The very same applies to a motorcyclist who dies losing control of his bike doing a wheelie at 60mph in the city centre, or, more banally, because he was inexperienced, the bike was too powerful for him, etc.

TFL publishes quite a lot of data on road safety: https://tfl.gov.uk/corporate/publications-and-reports/road-safety

If you look at 'casualties and serious injuries', one of the metrics TFL tracks, the picture is very different: in 2015 there were 387 with cyclists, and 535 with powered two-wheelers (scooters and motorbikes). Sure, still more accidents on motorbikes, but the difference could easily be explained by the factors I mentioned above.

The bottom line is, there are so many ways to skin this cat, it is impossible to 'prove' much with these statistics, because too many important factors are unknown and impossible to estimate reliably.

What I did substantiate, however, was that, unless almost all of the journey is in some kind of segregated cycle lane, a motorcycle ridden by a prudent and competent biker is less dangerous than a pushbike because:

* motorcycles are bigger and easier to spot

* pushbikes are effectively silent; motorcycles can he heard approaching

* it is easier for a motorcycle to accelerate away from an imminent danger than it is for a pushbike

* motorcycles have mirrors; sure, there still are blind spots, but having mirrors is better than not having them. There is a reason why they are compulsory! In theory pushbikes could install them but I never see any.

* motorcycles are more stable, handle the road better, and have better brakes. If a motorcycle and a pushbike are both going at 30mph on a wet road and they have to do an emergency brake, guess which will stop in the shortest distance? When there is heavy wind on a bridge, I am way more stable, on my 210Kg motorbike, than the pushbikes I see pushed left and right by the wind.

* bike helmets offer little protection to a very limited part of the head; motorcycle protection (full-face helmets, abrasion-resistant fabrics, armour on the back, knees, hips, elbows and shoudlers, etc.) can be way more comprehensive. And no, it's not true that you don't need this protection going at 20-30 mph; in fact, that is possibly when you need it most, because this gear won't help much if you have a collision at 70 mph! The tarmac can be a cheese grater even at 25mph; you don't want your flesh to be the cheese!

Of course, if I wanted to be an idiot, it would be much easier to kill myself and others on my motorcycle than on a pushbike; similarly, motorcycles are harder to ride, and riding a powerful motorcycle in a competent and prudent manner takes years of practice, but none of this makes motorcycles more dangerous per se.

[KidKruger]

'ageist' ?!

Jeremy, you feel crushed mate !

Maybe get some counselling later.

[Cardelia]

DulwichLondoner Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Aaaaargh! Although, to be honest, I don't know how

> much is to do with the strikes and how much with

> sheer incompetence. To me it all started going

> downhill around December 2014, with 'improvement'

> works at London Bridge. The key issue is not the

> strikes, but the fact that service is awful even

> when there are no strikes! Are so many Southern

> employees pulling in sickies? Did Southern fail to

> hire enough staff? Are workers simply refusing to

> work overtime, ie did Southern rely too much on

> overtime?

My understanding is that it's a bit of both. The London Bridge works are massively disruptive and have had a really detrimental effect on the timetable, especially for ED which is one of the very few stations with no alternative London terminus. They're scheduled to finish next year though.

Train operating companies have always relied on worker overtime in order to fill the rota. All of them do it. In part this was driven by the RMT/ASLEF which realised that its members could hoover up all the lucrative overtime and make a small fortune for sitting around on 'cover' shifts. Plus it would increase the powerbase of the union. In return, the employment costs for the TOCs were lower and they get to run a full service so in theory everybody wins. But when industrial disputes happen, such as the door issue, the RMT/ASLEF can withhold overtime and the TOC is stuck because it doesn't have enough staff on hand to fill the rota. It seems that Southern were woefully underprepared for the union action and had no contingency plans in place (sheer incompetence on Southern's behalf) but equally, the door issue was forced on them by Government policy and the unions could try a lot harder to find a workable solution to the problem, rather than maintaining archaic working practices for the sole benefit of their members' bank balances.

[DulwichLondoner]

@Cardelia, thanks.

In fact, AFAIK the unions have failed to prove that the many routes with driver-only trains are more dangerous. Equally, Southernfail has failed to answer the union's point about all the extra duties of non-driver staff, like helping people on platforms, helping the disabled, etc. Although, to be fair, I have never seen a wheelchair board a train on the Dulwich to London Bridge route - I'm not sure it would be feasible at all.

[rendelharris]

I'm obviously not going to change your mind so I won't go on too much, but...

Yes I agree speed limits should apply to bicycles but that would be difficult to enforce - I guess it would have to be made compulsory to carry a speedometer for a start. That link you posted doesn't mention speeding, just dangerous and aggressive cycling, and I'd fully support any plod initiative to stamp that out along with red light jumping etc - those cyclists are giving us all a bad reputation.

The differences in safety between a cycle and a motorcycle are hard to quantify (ETA though obviously I agree that if you do have a crash it's preferable to be wearing motorcycle gear!). I'd say that properly and defensively ridden it's a six and two threes. I personally feel slightly safer cycling as the comparative lack of acceleration makes it more difficult to get into trouble, plus it's more manouverable in tight spots. Regarding braking, well I wouldn't be cycling at 30MPH on a wet road, but generally cycles have shorter stopping distances than motorcycles (20MPH motorcycle 36 feet, bicycle 20 feet (all very subjective though as there's so much variation between bicycle tyres, treads etc)). Of course motorcycles have far better brakes, but that's evened out by the fact that the machine they're stopping can be up to twenty times heavier.

Regarding mirrors, I've tried them on a bike and couldn't get on with them, too small, too juddery and too hard to position on a race bike. I prefer constant lifesavers...nothing to stop you using them though (I've heard the ones that can be mounted on a helmet are good) so as a safety objection it wouldn't really apply.

With the route, if I'm going to Mayfair I take the same route to Blackfriars then it's totally segregated tracks all the way to Park Lane. Admittedly that's seven miles as opposed to five going the most direct way, but it's all exercise. So for that seven miles, 10% would be on quiet traffic calmed roads and the rest completely separate from motor traffic.

Anyway, you're not going to change your mind, clearly, but I hope others might. Ride safe.

Oh by the way, if you're near the Soho end of Mayfair, or others work there and are thinking of cycling, check out H2 Bike Run on Dufours Street - for ?50 a month you get a secure place to park your bike and use of showers, for an extra ?10 a month you can rent a locker to store your gladrags. Great idea, hope it spreads.

[Ellem86]

I agree that it is not too much to ask for a train service to be on time with minor delays now and then. Last year I reluctantly moved to St Albans. I work in the West End and my commute is 40 minutes - 18 mins to St Pancras on the fast train and then the Victoria Line. Travel is more expensive but houses are cheaper. Schools are all very good and you have easy access to the countryside. After just a year out here I honestly could not move back to London.

[Earl Aelfheah]

Everyone is aware of the existence of walking and cycling. It's irrelevant to a discussion about whether or not public transport is adequate however.

[titch juicy]

"I dont care about the privatisation of the Train line. Thats up to the Gov. The gov though has to provide me with links to London and that comes from my taxes. The deal that the Gov made with private companies to run the lines was specific and Southern is not a company that has kept its part of the deal.

Everytime you get a refund online because a Southernfail train was delayed or cancelled, it comes out of Gov's money which eventually comes from my taxes.

What about the ?20m that Gov threw away on Southernfail during Summer to improve the service? Isn't that coming from my tax money?

Generally speaking it doesn't mean that since Govia/Southern is a private company can do whatever it wants with the schedule. The Gov provides the guidelines for the service and Govia bids that its going to follow the schedule and provide that service. The deal was trains every 10 minutes on peak and 15minutes non-peak. That hasn't been followed by Southernfail using as an excuse the London Bridge revamp.

Btw I don't even know why am trying to make sense to you, you'r the guy that said if you kick someone on the shin no matter of his size he will go down... lol."

I admit to being a little naive on the tax issue I apologise and stand corrected.

The kick in the shins advice was given by an ex-special branch officer (former protection agent for a high profile member of the family of a certain very high profile 1980's prime minister) trained in close quarters combat.

Edit: to KidKruger; I hadn't thought of the childcare aspect, having none myself. Again, I apologise.

[rendelharris]

rahrahrah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Everyone is aware of the existence of walking and

> cycling. It's irrelevant to a discussion about

> whether or not public transport is adequate

> however.

Why is it not relevant, on a thread which was started by someone saying they were thinking of moving out of ED because they were sick of the poor transport links, to point out that there are alternative means of transport available? The OP has fully joined in that discussion...there seems to be a form of Godwin's law on the EDF that a thread can't get past a certain length before someone feels it incumbent upon them to complain about going off topic. It's a discussion board, discussions develop!

[Earl Aelfheah]

rendelharris Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> rahrahrah Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Everyone is aware of the existence of walking

> and

> > cycling. It's irrelevant to a discussion about

> > whether or not public transport is adequate

> > however.

>

> Why is it not relevant, on a thread which was

> started by someone saying they were thinking of

> moving out of ED because they were sick of the

> poor transport links, to point out that there are

> alternative means of transport available? The OP

> has fully joined in that discussion...there seems

> to be a form of Godwin's law on the EDF that a

> thread can't get past a certain length before

> someone feels it incumbent upon them to complain

> about going off topic. It's a discussion board,

> discussions develop!

That's kind of true, but I'm assuming that someone thinking of leaving the area due to bad public transport, values public transport. The fact that walking and cycling exist cannot have escaped anyone's attention, but clearly despite this, the OP would still like to live in an area where there are decent public transport options.

[Otta]

geobz Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Otta Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > JohnL Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> > -----

> >

> > > 1 Hour isn't good - we should be talking

> 30-40

> > > minutes.:)

> >

> >

> > Did you know that government guidelines on best

> > practice say that children up to the age of 8

> > (with special educational needs) shouldn't have

> > school journeys lasting more than 45 minutes.

> Over

> > 8s it's an hour. These guidelines have been

> around

> > forever (well decades).

> >

> > So I think an hour to work is perfectly

> acceptable

> > for a working adult :)

>

>

> The issue is that your not an hour away from the

> City. The transportation links are poor.

>

> I often walk from ED to Oxford Street, doesn't

> take me more than 1h20m to get there.

>

> So yes I think a bus that does 1hour against

> walking 1hour and 20 minutes is an issue.

>

> And southern isn't running most of the time, and

> the timeschedules are way off... you don't get

> trains every 10 minutes anymore apart from

> 8:10,20,30, everything else is every 20-30

> minutes... thats awful and it feels like you are

> living out of town. Also on weekends you get

> reduced services and Sundays you'll barely find

> the station open.

>

> Commuting from ED is BAD! Stop trying to convince

> yourself that its alright.

I'm not trying to convince myself of anything, I live somewhere with surprisingly great transport links (Penge). But I also recognise that I live in a city, and that roads are busy. I walk to work these days and usually take over 2 or 3 buses along the busy route.

The trains need sorting out. How Southern and co can run these awful services and yet continue to be awarded contracts, beggars belief. But that is far from exclusive to ED.

Buses have always been busy, and routes in to the city have always been busy. So you have the choice of walk, cycle, or allow time for the bus. This whole "I live in zone 2 so I should be entitled to get to work quickly" is a nonsense.

Oh, and just for the record ED Station is only just zone 2. Back when zones counted for buses, zone 2 ended at the goose green roundabout, anything south of there (ie most of East Dulwich) was always zone 3.

[????]

There used to be some others on here but now it feels like it's just me who think that East Dulwich's poor transport links are part of its appeal - far less transient and more local. If we had a tube for eg we'd soon be like Clapham North - full of Saffas and Aussies..whereas we only get the quality one's of course :). Fooks given about SE22's transport by me? None. - i just sit on the 40 most mornings up to E&C and enjoy it. The tube from Elephant is the sh1tiest part of my commute by far!

[Earl Aelfheah]

There is something in that quids. A tube can change the character of an area.

[MDMDPD]

The transport problems are easily solvable given the political will. There is a train track running through ED. TFL just need to run some regular trains on them