East Dulwich (Friern Manor) Eastern boundary in 1733 (Map)

[Chener Books]

Luke 15:32

This is a small section of the 1799 ownership and tenancy map of Friern Manor as overlaid on the 1733 field survey map.

It is now clear why some 17th century leases state that Peckham Rye Common is in East Dulwich.

John K

PS: Mr Guest your maps are still awaiting collection.

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

Me bredren ain't no map.

[Sue]

Didn't realise Peter Stringfellow was quite that old :))

[Huggers]

do you see to the left? a 'john lewis' or ''waitrose'' as it is nowadays known. Oh what has been lost to time!

[Michael Palaeologus]

A strong argument for a strip joint in the Lordship Lane police station.

[Sue]

What's the significance of "The Poor of Battersea"?

:)

[Chener Books]

Sue,

Unfortunately the map only showas and gives field names where they are tenanted. Mr Perey was the tenant of Dunston's Ern, and Mr Silversides was the tenant of Silversides, between these two fields Manor land was allocated to the benefit of the Battersea Poor.

It is possible that this is either (a) a result of Elizabethan Poor Law administration (b) the Lord of The Manor's family charity. More research is needed.

And just for you Sue, here's your part of East Dulwich.

John K

[Sue]

Hey, cool, thanks :)

[ianr]

Gosh. What are the units – acres, roods, and square perches? Have you been able to verify/calibrate [*] them?

[*] "even as late as 1820, a House of Commons report notes lengths of 16.5, 18, 21, 24, and even 25 feet" for a linear perch. (Wikipedia)

[jimmah]

I'm struggling to get my bearings with the first map. Is the south at the top? Newlands I think is what became the Stuart Road area...but then what is Wood Lane has this be renamed and where did it lead to?

[Bic Basher]

I'm thinking Wood Lane is what is known as Wood Vale, which is the boundary between ED and Forest Hill/Honor Oak.

[Asset]

I'd agree with Bic there

[aspidistra]

Diner's Hill = Dawson's Hill etc.?

[Chener Books]

ianr

Yes. They are those old land area measurements. 1820? I remember doing arithmetic with these when I was at primary school. Couldn't do it now.

When I have a spare Sunday I'll use GIS software to morph the map and overlay it on a current street plan. Don't hold your breath.

jimmah

South is to the right of the first map. You are right about Newlands. Some people might remember the Newlands Tavern.

Wood Lane is now Wood Vale. It didn't go anywhere other than to provide access to the Great North Wood.

Bic Basher

The "road leading to Wood Lane" is now Forest Hill Road.

The present "boundary between ED and Forest Hill/Honor Oak" is modern. It only dates from 1888. Before then East Dulwich ran all the way to the Kent border.

aspidistra

Primrose Hill - Ladlands - Dawson Heights is a little to the South East of Diner's Hill.

I've added that section of the map for you. There are three strip fields. This is the first evidence of medieval argriculture in East Dulwich. It's a pity the map only gives details of fields that were rented out.

John K

[Bic Basher]

Was the Kent border exactly the same boundary as Southwark (Surrey)/Lewisham (Kent) is today? Although the Royal Mail postcodes allocate Forest Hill to part of the Southwark side, such as Wood Vale and the council estate on the corner of LL and Sydenham Hill.

[Chener Books]

East Dulwich runs South to the Kent border.

East Dulwich was in Surrey and the Surrey/Kent border ran along the crest of the hill between Wood Vale and Westwood Park. Unless someone's had it away there's still an old cast iron boundary post on the top of One Tree Hill.

It is as a result of recent bureaucratic activity that East Dulwich now straddles four London postal districts and two London Boroughs.

The imaginary line down the centre of Wood Vale is a red herring.

In 1857 the Post Office decentralised London post sorting and introduced the London postal districts. Dulwich district managed post for East Dulwich North of Wood Vale and Forest Hill district managed it for South of Wood Vale.

Later on the Dulwich postal district was split into two and the East Dulwich postal district was created. The architects' plans for the Silvester Road sorting office are in the National Archives.

The numbered London postal districts as we know them now started in 1917 as a war-time measure.

The 1888 Local Goverment Act moved the very South of East Dulwich into Lewisham Borough. The legislation used the same boundary that was created by the Post Office in 1857.

John K

[treehugger]

Dear John K, these maps (and the other documents you share on the messageboard) are so interesting. Where are the originals kept? Is it possible to see them, and others too?

[edhistory]

treehugger,

The only known surviving copy of the map is in the British Library Map Department. I paid for it to be digitised for the first time. I am arranging for Southwark Local Studies Library to have a copy of the digital image.

John K

[edhistory]

Sue,

The St John family was a major landowner and benefactor of Battersea Parish.

Hollis St John died in 1738 without issue. This causes a puzzle about why he is named on the Friern Manor map.

In c1700 Walter St John bought 30 acres in Camberwell (parish) to provide an income for Battersea Grammar School.

The area on the map for the poor of Battersea is too small to be this.

It is possibly the Ann Cooper Bequest. In her will 22 June 1720 she left ?300 to purchase land and the rental to be used for the poor of Battersea.

More research is needed. The EDF has several genealogists who can elucidate the Friern/Battersea connection.

John K

[edhistory]

Not the Ann Cooper Bequest. That was land outside modern London.

The sale of that one small field in East Dulwich was adjudicated on by the Charity Commissioners and reported to the House of Commons.

I've attached just the first page of the correspondence. There is a lot of it.

If you would like a full copy send me an email to [email protected]

John K

[edhistory]

Well, here's a surprise. This is what happens when GIS software projects the 1733/99 Friern Manor boundary on to a 2011 street map. This needs more investigation in respect of the deviation from the 1831 county boundary.

What it does show, beyond reasonable doubt, is that the witness evidence given by the Lord of the Manor's agent to the parliamentary enquiry into the alleged illegal enclosure of parts of Peckham Rye Common was, at best, "suspect". It is clear that more than half of Peckham Rye Common was within Friern Manor.

John K

[edhistory]

Here is a partial answer to Sue's question of 28 March.

It probably also has the derivation of "The Herne Tavern's" name.

This land is almost certainly that referred to in the East Dulwich tax settlement of 1245AD.

John K

[mikeb]

Muschamps Quellots - link to the old Muschamp family. But Quellots?

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=PicAAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA148&lpg=PA148&dq=%22sir+matthew+muschamp%22&source=bl&ots=dVIAyN1Gu_&sig=RSWd07Fzs8woBEAZazGdvhkZJvE&hl=en&ei=jy3CTtrMC6Xt0gH4hMDhDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=%22sir%20matthew%20muschamp%22&f=false

[mikeb]

[edit]