changing relationships...

[cuppa tea]

Hi, I was wondering if anyone else finds that the relationship they have with their mother/mother-in-law has changed since having children? Since having my children relations between me and my mum have become increasingly strained to the point that now we cannot spend time together with the kids unless my husband, or her husband is there. I think I have chosen to bring up my children quite differently to how she did things and perhaps this is causing the problem. I feel constantly critisised. My 4 year old's behaviour has been pretty dreadful since having his brother, now 1 yr. He is obviously jealous and feeling rejected. He lashes out at his brother sometimes, (usually when my mum is around!) and my mum just cannot handle this. She doesn't think it should be happening and blames my more empathetic style of parenting. I feel that we cannot meet until I have a very well behaved child, which is definitely asking too much of a 4 year old, (or any child for that matter!), otherwise it causes arguments. I just don't have the emotional support from her I need and I am wondering if I am simply asking too much?

Anyway, I'd be interested to hear other stories and what you did to try and improve things. Thanks.

[littleEDfamily]

I don't have a problem with my mother in law and unfortunately my mother is no longer around, BUT I can definitely empathise on the 4 year old behaviour thing...I've found my daughter has become much harder to handle since her sister came along. And, for the record, I have a more authoritative style of parenting and I'm not having much luck either.

I think sometimes parents/ parents in law have a slightly rose tinted view of how things were when we were young. My dad is definitely like that (unrealistic expectations of my kids and believes absolutely we were perfect!) I'm not sure there is anything that can be done, although I have the sort of relationship with my Dad where I can tell him to shut it when he gets out of line. I reckon the reason it is so infuriating when we feel our parents are criticising our parenting is that on some level we haven't totally grown up and want to please them, so what I have done to cope when I feel anxious is try to convince myself it doesn't really matter if he doesn't agree with my approach: not his kids, not his problem - and I try to be flippant and humorous about it. When you think about it, it is totally ridiculous how wound up people get about the 'right' way to bring up kids. It's not like we're stablising a nuclear reactor or anything and I think we could all do with lightening up about it sometimes...(says the person who was nearly in tears on Friday after being told for about the twentieth time 'You're NOT MY BEST FRIEND', by my 4 year along with feet stamping, throwing of toys....is she the 21st century incarnation of Veruca Salt...sometimes I wonder...?)

[cuppa tea]

I think you've hit on a point there that I am probably trying to get approval from my mum and that I probably shouldn't give a damn whether she thinks I am a good mum or not. It does seem hard to be free of this, as the lines between where she is interfering and taking over and where I am not being assertive enough about how I do things, is so blurred. I'm trying to sort out my son's jealousy by getting to the root of the problem and giving him more 1 to 1, helping him to feel less insecure and loved, rather than punishing him for it and perpetuating the cycle of him feeling bad about himself. She steams in and gets angry with him and then it seems we go backwards 10 paces. Very frustrating. I just don't think whether my approach is right or wrong needs to be on trial, as however I do things they are my kids.

Anyway, I guess me growing up a bit would definitely help. Somehow when with my parents I turn into a rebellious 16 year old again! Thanks for sharing your insights. Very helpful.

[womanofdulwich]

i do think our parents were much stricter with us than we are with our children. so many times i was sent to bed with no food for misbehaving and not allowed back downstairs. lots of slaps and now this kind of behaviour is not acceptable. We tend to treat our children more as eauals and this is hard for our parents to understand. But it will get better. Promise/

[cuppa tea]

Yes you are right Womanofdulwich. I was raised in a very different way! Smacking was totally acceptable and I think I was smacked quite often. Definitely a 'seen and not heard' approach as I was growing up. I think my parents think that giving a kid some freedom to make their own choices means that they will end up being an anti-social tyrant. The trouble I have is that my mum seems to use my child's behaviour as proof that this will be the case, whereas I am pretty certain that this behaviour won't go on forever.

[Saffron]

When your mother interacts with your child in a way you disapprove, treat her exactly like you treat your 4 yo. Tell her firmly that her behaviour is not acceptable, but that you're not angry and you still love her. Then offer her a hug. I bet she will be totally blown away, or at least rendered speechless, which is fine for your purposes too.

[Hah44]

This actually works with children but not with adults. When I said to my husband

I am not angry and I still love him he gets very upset; but our son is very happy.

I have a very soft personality that even if my husband is upset I still love him

the wy he is and I will love him for ever becouse he is the father of my children

and nobody is perfect. Love you darling if you there.

[Moos]

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[cuppa tea]

hah44, how funny and sweet - you're husband is lucky!

Saffron - I think it's probably worth a try. We are in stale mate at the moment. I am getting far too emotional about it all and it's very difficult to react in an appropriate way myself. Thanks.

[Saffron]

It's definitely worth a try, if for nothing else than the fact that your child will see that you treat everyone equally. If it arouses anger instead of sympathy in your mother (as Hah44 suggests might happen), then you deal with the anger the same way you deal with it in your child. Be calm but firm, and not reactive.

If you can get to the root of the problem and come up with a new understanding between you and your mother, that would be wonderful. If that's not possible, then it may be better to accept the differences and let them go. That does not mean you have to accept her behaviour around your son. That may mean accepting that you have someone else like your husband there when your mother is with your children. You may spend less time with your mother, but it may be better time.

Children change everything (little buggers!). It will take you and your mother time to find new paths in life. A lot could be happening in her mind that she doesn't want to talk about, or doesn't have words for. Her lashing out at your son for example, could be an expression of her fear of losing you. She doesn't see that she creates the thing she fears by her very actions.

lots of sympathy for you all x

[reren]

I have really observed this with the way my parents react to how my nephew is being brought up and am stealing myself for disapproving looks at first temper tantrums from my son who is too young yet! I wonder if our parents see it as an implicit criticism of their parenting if we choose to parent differently? Perhaps subconsciously they are also seeking our approval? I also think perhaps the grandparent relationship can be difficult to navigate from their point of view sometimes - they feel intense parental type love for the child and yet have no control? As when they were parents they may also want thr child's behaviour to reflect well on them? And they see how stressed their child (the parent) is by the childs behaviour and want to help - their solution being a good firm smack or something similar which our generation isnt so keen on!

[Smiler]

Have been through similar with my parents on different issues and am becoming more assertive! We have developed a "broken record" technique, eg "you seem to think X. We have decided to do Y. I hope you can respect our decision/approach", then repeat as necessary without getting drawn into a debate or trying to justify ourselves.

Recommend a book called "siblings without rivalry", have found it v helpful in dealing with our 3yo jealousy of her baby sister. It emphasises that it's actually good for siblings to say negative things at times, eg that they don't like or want the baby. Stuff that i previously found shocking I now let my daughter say, and her behaviour has really improved. She will now just complain verbally if she wants more attention from me rather than taking it out on the baby or misbehaving. Also has lots of good stuff for older siblings.

[Smiler]

My father in law insists that none of his three boys ever had tantrums. Ha!

Have witnessed them having tantrums NOW for a start!

Wish m-i-l (who did the childcare) was still around to sort him out!

[BellendenBear]

There was an article in the NCT magazine a few months ago about how your relationship with your Mum can change after having children. It was all about how the relationship got stronger and more empathic now that you both had the shared experience of motherhood. It made me feel even worse about the state of my own relationship with my Mum since having my daughter 2 years ago. I am relieved to find out that it is not just me!

When my Mum visits it is usually for several days, and I very quickly revert to grunting mono-syllabic teenager mode. I just can't help it. I find criticism in everything that she says. Some of this is no doubt me being over sensitive, but there is a legitimate basis for how I feel. Following the birth of my first daughter she was openly critical about just about everything - from nasty comments about how I still looked fat/pregnant 12 hours after giving birth to slagging off our choice of name to anyone who would listen, making very derogatory comments about its social standing despite it being a family name from Mr BB's side. On our first night home from hospital she said that we did not know what we were doing and were not fit to be parents! She was very stressed at the time but has never apologised for her behaviour. I feel a lot of resentment for this but for some reason can not talk to her about it.

My second daughter was born 3 weeks ago. My mum came to stay for a week to help out with my eldest daughter who adores her. However, my Mum constantly undermines us. She is much softer than we are and does not set any boundaries, is keen to let her stay up late and does not back us up with any of the sanctions that we impose if she misbehaves. Consequently my daughter's behaviour deteriorates and Mr BB and I feel like we are constantly having to tell her off and say 'no' to her. And so by the time she leaves, stress levels are very high and I can barely speak to her. And then after she's gone I feel guilty that I should have made more effort, yet I get the impression that she doesn't have any insight into the problem and doesn't give it a second thought. A couple of days later she rings to try to schedule her next visit or to drop strong hints about joining us on our summer holiday!

So, sorry to highjack this thread, but I too would like some advice. There seems to be a pattern of antagonistic, overly critical, love-hate relationships between females on my Mum's side of the family. I worry that unless I am able to break this cycle then I am destined to have equally dysfunctional relationships with my own 2 daughters. Does anyone have experience of relationship counselling for this type of problem and can it work if only one party has the counselling? I am hoping that eventually I would be able to talk to my Mum about how I feel, but the first step might be some guidance in how to approach this without things sliding into critical parent / stroppy child mode.

[Smiler]

BB that sounds really hard, poor you. Is really bad when mothers say undermining things to daughters, comment on weight etc.

There was a book that had rave reviews from friends of mine about mother/daughter relationships and things that can go wrong, can't remember the title though!

I personally think that counselling - individual - can be really useful for this kind of stuff, in working out new strategies etc. But has to be the right counsellor. Or assertiveness training maybe? Sounds like she does need to be challenged whenever she says nasty stuff and at the moment gets away with too much maybe?

With respect to the boundaries thing, think that some grandparents may be soft on the grandkids 'cos they worry that the kids won't like them! I know of a fair few who are v soft and the kids do play up after an extended visit. I was at a soft play recently and my daughter was playing with a little girl whose Mum I know and who was there with her grandparents. They were doing stuff they shouldn't, so I went and told them off (a little). The granny thanked me and said that she didn't like telling her grandaughter off 'cos she didn't see her all that often and worried that she would be upset or not like her. So maybe some grandparents are not as confident as they make out.

"Gransnet" has just gone live, has some useful stuff - including on not interfering - aimed at self-aware grans!

[cuppa tea]

renren - I definitely think there is something in the idea that our parents can't cope with seeing us 'struggling'. My mum is certainly saying that "life must be so hard for me" and "I see you not coping", which to be honest is very patronising. i keep trying to tell her that this really is not what "not coping" looks like. Then I think she blames my child for giving me a hard time. I am then protective of him and the cycle continues.

Smiler - thanks for the book recommendation. I will give it a go. The rivalry seems to escalate each time the baby goes through a development stage and becomes more of a threat, or he is unwell and more clingy.

Bellendenbear - You are definitely not alone! It must surely be a common issue. I definitely think that it would work having counselling for just yourself. After all it is your problem in the sense that it is upsetting you, probably more than your mother. I think Smiler has a strong point about not justifying ourselves, or getting into debate. Sometimes when I do this I feel that I have opened up the way I do things to a board of trustees, who then have the right to say how my children are raised. It is my decision alone. Certainly in my case it's an assertiveness problem with my own mum, as well as some kind of weird over-dependency thing. I perhaps am doubting myself and my mothering and it then leaves people to offer suggestions or criticisms. None of this is helped by the fact that we are living in a society which 'blames the mother' for any problems with children, as well as mothering, or parenting being seen as not a valuable job. Whatever you can do to raise your own confidence and finding a way of parenting yourself without needing approval from your mother is worth it. There...I seemed to have answered my own question!!

[cuppa tea]

Smiler - Grandparents have a very rosy tinted idea of 'how things were'. How my mum can remember 38 years ago, when I cannot remember my 4 year old as a baby is totally beyond me! She's even said "I'm sure all babies used to sleep in my day. I can't remember anybody complaining of lack of sleep. They all used to sleep through". After 2 years of NO SLEEP, you can imagine I didn't react very well to that one!

[new mother]

Cuppa, that is infuriating.

I wonder if there is a divided loyalty thing going on as well. They don't like to seethe clear evidence of our new priorities, while of course adoring the new arrival to the ends of the earth.

I am glad others react like teenagers to their parents staying. I thought I was desperately immature for it(!). Any idea what triggers it?

Xxx

[Ruth_Baldock]

I've been thinking about this a lot recently, too, after re-reading Naomi Staden's book, which has a chapter on the relationship between you, as a Mother, and your own Mum. If it's meant to make you closer and have a new level of 'respect' for each other, then I am afraid this isn't the case for me either!

My Mum is a consultant obs. and throughout my first pregnancy was pretty dismissive of my 'new age, hippie' ideas. (I wanted a homebirth and I didn't want any pain meds. Got the latter, not the former). She breastfed all of us for donkeys years, but when I had supply problems, instead of encouraging me to keep going, she said 'Oh, just chuck in the towel' which wasn't what I wanted to hear, and when I continued to bf my baby until he was 11mo, she'd make comments about 'Don't you think that's enough now? I don't know WHY i bothered to feed you all for so long...'. I don't know whats happened to her, but we've always had a lot of 'issues' anyway, unfortunately.

We're currently not really talking due to her excellent line in guilt tripping re: not seeing Cheeky S enough (err, make the effort, then?!) and after a flippant comment re: my BP/VBAC. (Which was, for those interested, "If you were one of my patients, I'd be scaring you into a c-section at 37weeks. It's only because I LOVE you!" I thought, if that's love then you can keep it, thanks...).

However, being a Mum HAS brought me and my MIL closer. She's very intefereing and annoys me a lot sometimes, but we have a new level of honesty between us now, and she'll reguarly say things like "Breastfeeding in my day was 10 mins each side...not the way you do it...BUT now I think about it, it makes MUCH MORE sense to do it your way..." Or she'll call me up when she's looking after Cheeky S to say how happy he is, and how that's all down to me making him confident and secure. It's taken us 17mo to get to this point, but she's more of a Mother to me than my own at this point. I don't know whether to be sad about this or not. She's still insane when it comes to my Son and thinks that BLW and babywearing is the work of the devil and that anytime he has to have anti-biotics I am RUINING his immune system etc, but I can take that with a pinch of salt now :)

[Belle]

I wonder if there's an element of 'I had to get through it, so now you must too without making a fuss' - you know, kind of been there done that? Sometimes irrationally people aren't sympathetic when they see others going through tribulations they've been through themselves, they can be more 'what are you complaining about, in my day the dads didn't help at all and I didn't have a cleaner' (/car/some other perceived 'luxury' to make you feel guilty). I'm very fortunate not to have this with my mum. Both my mum and mother in law have said frankly that they found their first child v v difficult, which I've found so helpful. But I do see the lack of sympathy in others of their generation.

I don't know whether it's brought us closer in that I was close to my mum anyway. I do TOTALLY do the teenage thing, and that's as someone who gets on with my mum, sometimes it's quite embarrassing, e.g. if someone on the street here's me snapping at her.

[Mellors]

I've just come off the phone to my mother, and made the mistake of having a mini moan to her (baby due today, have beastly 2 year old and 4 year old to look after and husband who probably can't even take 2 weeks paternity). All I got was "well you wanted another baby, its not like he dad's did anything when I had you, stop moaning and man up!" speech. She's not even coming to see new baby until a month or so after, and even then sits around expecting me to make her cups of tea etc. Zero sympathy!

Thank goodness for MIL who is super helpful and kind.

[Ruth_Baldock]

Mellors, I am raging on your behalf. Have had the same speech from my mum :( husband probably can't take his 2wks either. Time to join a commune.

[cuppa tea]

I've stopped moaning altogether....to anybody..as just ended up with stream of advice, or "well you dad wasn't around and I had to do it all on my own, blah de blah". I just don't understand what this line of conversation is supposed to achieve? It's weirdly competitive somehow. I usually end up responding badly and then it all goes a bit tit for tat. Having children in whatever generation has to be extremely challenging!

[Ruth_Baldock]

Cuppa Tea, yes, exactly the same here. I remember having a cry to Mum about my Son's constant illness and his asthma, only to have my Mum say 'Yes, well, you were like that but since your Dad buggered off, I was on my own and I coped...'

My Dad didn't bugger off, he died. And she 'coped' by continuing to do controlled crying with me despite any illness. So thanks, Mum.

Grr.

[sophiechristophy]

I second the commune idea. :)