Gang in East Dulwich

[DJKillaQueen]

MP you are so full of yourself sometimes.....high horses are for the truly condascending I'm afraid nor do you speak for any majority.

[*Bob*]

condescending

[DJKillaQueen]

:)) nice one bob lol.

[StraferJack]

I'm not saying you haven't got any insight - I'm just saying banal cliches are not the way to convey it

At the risk of further nit-picking, you say you

" prefer though not to resort to semantics " when you are specifically picking apart the lyrics to a song is a bit rich.

Either we are talking about what people really mean by their choice of words, or we aren't

If you are helping kids through youth programmes and suchlike, good on you and more power to your elbow. But failing to understand that violence, murder and all-round-bad-attitude have been part of popular music since day 1 suggests you aren't on a strong footing. To then sound like Mary Whitehouse while you do it - surely not even you want to align yourself with the reactionary forces throughout the history of pop music? And it's not semantics to suggest that your quote

"I think any kid that thinks there any merit in making music about killing and robbing people needs their head testing

" does exactly that

[DJKillaQueen]

You are having a different debate to me. If you read my posts I was talking about the genre of rap music. This is the genre these kids are interested in. My first posts in fact were arguing that the music they are making is rubbish and I said why I think that music to be rubbish within it's genre. The discussion then went on to look at how young teenage thugs are using that genre as an extension of their image.

Yes violence has been protrayed in music but rap and hip hip is a genre that has relied primarily on those themes (unlike other genres) and constantly explores a level of voilent language not seen in any other genre.

Now does that in turn make teenagers into thugs might the question you are trying to answer? My view on that is that it is niaive to think that exposure to violence has no impact on young people. But there's little that can be done about that with global media and it's very difficult to measure.

[StraferJack]

Look, there is ALWAYS at least one genre of music which is singled out as a worry. So you might think we are having a different debate but I don't. You are focusing on this particular genre, becase it's what these kids are into but it's almost a moot point. We could equally talk about Death Metal

does exposure to violence make people violent is a different question - but it wasn't the question when you said that people who are into or write violent lyrics need to have their head examined

But again, the same reasoning has always existed - horror comics were banned for years because of their supposed corruption of young people. It's attractive to people who want to think there is a simple solution for societal problems. Kids are killing each other? These kids listen to rap music and play video games... qed 2+ 2 = whateveriwantittobe

here's my theory - if someone is listening to seriously violent lyrical content then it's most likely a) a rebellious phase and nothing to worry about b) indicitave of someone with problems already who was subsequently attracted to the violent imagery. I would be very surprised if there was a c) well adjusted individual who heard some violent lyrics and though it would be cool to re-enact in real life

[thomastillingthe3rd]

What business is he involved with?

Lots of them Jeremy. They have been trying to turn there SN1 brand into a business, have opened a couple of outlet stores but they have been shut down with pressure from operation trident. SN1 (spare no-one)

[thomastillingthe3rd]

"The problem with a lot of these kids today is that they are emulating not creating " - that's a bit simplistic queen.

Here's some history that gives you a better insight of what is around these kids, it leads to the 2009 shooting on Barry Road in East Dulwich, and beyond. The Peckham boys are also known as the 'Black Gang' because of their paisley Black Bandanas.....

In 2003, Colin Igwe was stabbed to death outside a McDonalds on Malt Street just off the Old Kent Road. He was known to have affiliated with both the Ghetto Boys and Peckham Boys. On the night of the murder he had left his home in a hurry after receiving a phone call from a heroin addict. He became involved in an altercation with three assailants. One of those was later identified on CCTV touching Igwe on the shoulder. The DNA taken from Igwe?s clothing led detectives to 17-year-old Krik Boreland from Southwark. He was charged with murder whilst two others, cousins Corey and Dwayne Thomas also of Southwark, were convicted of manslaughter.

Original Peckham Boy Eric Akinniranye, also known as Tipsy, an older to what is now the SN1 generation was shot dead in 2004. He had recently been released from Coldingley Prison, Surrey, on a temporary licence after serving three years of a ten year sentence for firearms offences. He was rammed from his motorcycle by two gunmen in a Mercedes who then chased him along Camberwell?s High Street; he was brought down with a number of shots. When he was down, the killers stood over him and fired shots to his head at point-blank range. The stolen car licence plates on the Mercedes were later dumped at Lyndhurst Grove, Peckham. Paul Smith, 41, of Thornton Heath was later charged with murder and two counts of possession of a firearm but the case was discontinued at the Old Bailey. The murder was sparked over an internal dispute amongst the Peckham Boys over money.

In 2006 Jason Gayle-Bent, a relative of Ghetto Boy members Smiler, Kraver and Young Kraver, was stabbed to death by members of the Peckham Boys whilst sat outside his home in Ludwick Mews, New Cross (see Lewisham page). Following the murder the Peckham Academy and Harris Girls? Academy Schools were closed early after rumours that violence was planned between the Peckham Boys and Ghetto Boys as a result of Jason?s death. That same year Time Out magazine for London quite irresponsibly included the Peckham Boys in its top 100 list, ?Movers & Shakers?, which lists what it believes to be the most influential groups and organisations in London. Innocent Polish nurse Magda Pniewiska was shot dead a year later when rivals from Peckham and Ghetto exchanged shots in New Cross in 2007.

In February 2007, Nigerian drug lord Chamberlain Igwema was shot dead in a flat on Clayton Road on the Pelican estate in Peckham. The victim was shot at point-blank range in the head, groin and stomach and left to bleed to death. The murder was witnessed by his accountant who claimed three Jamaicans who had been there to purchase drugs decided they were going to rob them. The accountant who is also Nigerian had previous drug convictions from Venezuela and Holland. When paramedics arrived they found 4kg of crack in a Hugo Boss bag, the accountant identified a Jamaican known as ?Gold Teeth? for the murder.

On Boxing Day 2007 Peckham?s Dipo Seweje, 20, was shot dead after being chased through the Aylesbury estate in Walworth. His body lay undiscovered for 26-hours in a communal garden after the shooting until a resident came across it. His murder remains unsolved. The weapon used to shoot Seweje was the same one used in the murder of boxer James Oyebola in Fulham, perpetrated by gangsters from Battersea.

Peckham Boy Ezekial Ojo, also known as Boogie, was gunned down a couple of weeks after innocent Ryan Bravo on Walworth Road in 2008. Originally from Lagos in Nigeria, Boogie died from gunshot wounds to the chest, the case remains unsolved. He had been accused of a triple attempted murder offence alongside Marcus Hewitt-McKenzie and Lemuel Blackman after a shooting outside Coronet Night Club in New Kent Road the previous year. The three were accused of opening fire at Vincent Slough, Simon York and Brian Oxford and of robbing York of a chain.

In 2008, OC gang older Errol Davis, 24, was shot dead in the SEOne nightclub in Weston Street. Errol Davis, known as Sense, was the second OC member to have been shot dead that year. Davis, who had associates from rival area Peckham, was shot in the left side of the head in the early hours at the nightclub on the 5th of October 2008. A suspect was caught on CCTV walking towards the victim 74 seconds before the shooting and later arrested and interviewed.

Giggs & Kyze SN1 - Rat-a-Tat-Tat

In January 2009, the same gun used to kill Davis, a Glock self-loading 9mm pistol, was used in another shooting, the victim was Marcus Bennett. He was shot through his shoulder outside Welland House in Rye Hill Park but refused to cooperate with the police.

Then in February 2009, the gun was used again to kill 25-year-old Larry Safie who was shot in the head on Barry Road, East Dulwich. Safie had recently been released from a three-and-a-half year sentence for a knife point robbery. He was gunned down in broad daylight. He had been due to meet up with a friend for a catch-up a few hours before he was killed.

[Horsebox]

All good stuff, Thomas, but you should really credit your sources.

[thomastillingthe3rd]

oh right here you go - http://sites.google.com/site/londonstreetgangs/gang-lists/south-london-gangs/peckham-boys-black-gang

[DJKillaQueen]

I actually live near Welland House. I know very well the background to the Barry Road shooting, was at home on the evening of the shooting on the stairway of Welland. Knew the people who were involved, the Peckham Boys involvement and knew of the police surveilance op of them prior to the Barry Road shooting and I'll stop there. I've lived as an adult in the area for 24 years and don't really need a history lesson.

They point is that these gangs do exist and certainly where I live we do everything we can as a community with regular liasion with the Police, Council and youth offending services to prevent gang activity taking any kind of hold on our neighbourhood.

[Jeremy]

thomastillingthe3rd Wrote:

> Lots of them Jeremy. They have been trying to

> turn there SN1 brand into a business, have opened

> a couple of outlet stores but they have been shut

> down with pressure from operation trident. SN1

> (spare no-one)

Fair enough. I guess the word "succesful" is fairly subjective.

[pk]

DJKillaQueen Wrote:

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> where I live we do everything we can as

> a community with regular liasion with the Police,

> Council and youth offending services to prevent

> gang activity taking any kind of hold on our

> neighbourhood.

what is it that you do? does it work?

[Horsebox]

Djkq, did the police tell you personally about the surveillance op?

[ibilly99]

People are being mugged so they can buy this rubbish http://www.sn1wearltd.com/ - this is the clothing firm of Giggs our Peckham rapper friend. The OP was I think trying to link the rise in muggings in East Dulwich with the prevalent gang culture in the area and with SE22 gentrification acting as a magnet for the local petty criminals which is a fair assumption to make.

Here we are mostly repping the Dulwich Side

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[Jeremy]

ibilly99 Wrote:

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> People are being mugged so they can buy this

> rubbish http://www.sn1wearltd.com/

Straight out of 1983.

[ibilly99]

Let's hope he doesn't want to open a shop in Lordship Lane though to be fair to him he seems to be a reformed character but his obvious sucess is a template for the local wannabees ..

http://www.djsemtex.com/blog/2010/01/08/giggs-nme-interview/

I picked up the latest copy of NME, flicking through I saw this interview with Gigg. I?ve typed it up as I couldnt see it on their website.

Dont cry for me se15. For all the evil that plauged the south east London area of Peckham last decade ? from the murder of 10 year old Damilola Taylor in a council estate stairwell in 2000 to the stabbing of a 13-year-old boy just a mile down the road in Camberwell last July ? the troubled postcode might just have found an unlikely saviour in Nathan Thompson, Aka Hollowman, aka Giggs.

You couldn?t exactly call him an angel ? the last time we checked , Gabriel never served two years in Prison for gun charges (as Thompson had by his 20th birthday), nor do angels spit coupletes such as ?the next nigger who fucks with me wont have no movement in his bones? (as Thompson does in his tune ?hollowman?.) However this 27 year old currently being paraded by his new label XL as UK rap?s brightest new hope certainly insists he?s a man who?s put the ?naughtiness? of his youth behind him.

?I?m proud to be from Peckham,? he said when we meet in the unlikely surrounds of the area?s boho-chic Bar Story, before taking our drinks across the road to conduct our interview by a spluttering gas-stove under Peckham Rye train station railway arches. ?But wth the thing with Peckham,? he continues over the first of multiple rum-and-cokes looking around at his surroundings with an almost nervous twitch, ?is it?s a hard place to come from. I?m trying to represent so that people know its not just scallywags that come out of it,?

Crucial point, the reason we keep referring to this UK rap, not UK hip-hop or grime , is because there?s a feeling within the scene that his music is ?wiping the slate clean? from grime?s failed promises. It?s uncompromising and fuelled by America?s dirrty south. It was this that helped Giggs come to his new labels attention via the fannish championing and personal introductions of scene embassador Mike Skinner ? who wrote the duo?s collaboration ?Slow Songs? just so he could put the rappers voice out there. They were also no doubt impressed by his regular self-released mixtapes (?Ive been selling 1000,000 of them on my own back, I just want to see if signing with a label means I can take that higher?) and his unique, low frequency, doomy vocal style (for all his proclamations of ?not actually doing what I sing about? this is scary, challenging, threatening music). But it was the birth of his now eight-year-old son which Giggs credits with instigating the reassessment of what he wanted from his life.

?its all behind me now,? and thats because I want to give my son something different than what I had.? In fact, it was only upon exiting prison that the new father decided he wanted to try and make a living from music rather than just ?dabbling? in it. ?I?d already has the idea of making mixtapes, but then I went to Jail. Then when I came out I decided to take it seriously ? but I was rubbish at rapping in prison. I used to rap over things on the radio, and it wasnt until my team started to make me my own beats that the songs got any good.? Then, upon leaving prison, he uploaded a video on YouTube entitled ?Talkin Da Ardest? of him and his team performing ?freestyle? over a Dr Dre-produced beat under a railway arch not far from where we talk today. The video became a viral sensation (1,125,009 plays and counting), with reports of it even stopping raves ? from dubstep to drum?n'bass ? mid-set across the country for special screenings. It was true DIY exposure,

Since leaving prison, Giggs has tried hard to stay out of trouble. ?That way of being is everyday life for everyone around here, so its hard to change your whole way of living. Obviously I?m always going to have friends and family here and I can?t just stop talking to them. I just try to take myself away from that by doing music.?

But however clean his recent record is, there are still disbelievers to be won over ? including those working at Operation Trident, the Metropolitan Police Unit set up to investigate and inform communities of gun crime and other violent behaviour in London?s black community.

?When labels were looking to sign me,? Giggs tells us, ?and before XL signed me, everyone wanted to have a go. Trident rang up every single one of them telling them about my past, and how they shouldnt have anything to do with me. They shut down my shows. Every single thing I do thats supposed to be positive they fuck up for me. It?s as if they dont want me to make legal money. It?s as if they want me to end up back on streets or something! Why wouldnt you want someone to do something positive? I?ve learnt my lesson and done my time in Jail.? Giggs frustrations were capped when the intervention of Trident last year meant a Lil Wayne support slot had to be aborted.

As if that wasnt bad enough, Giggs? shop, the SN1 (Spare No 1) outfit located at Unit 24, 48 Rye Lane Market ? Set up ?almost a year ago? to sell his clothing line, his mixtapes, and music made by other members of the Uk rap scene ? is having similar treatment. Rarely a week goes by when the shop isn?t raided. ?The shop is great,? he smiles, proudly ?We sell everything. Kids? clothes, boys? clothes, women?s clothing, music. A lot of music from up-and-coming artists. We dont discriminate, we sell any talent. We?re trying to make the underground thing happen. But the Police raid us all the time. I think they want to make it look like there are bad things going on in the shop so that people won?t come in. Thing is, though, more people come in than they used to becausee of the Trident thing ? they support us because they don?t want us to be shut down.?

One place where Giggs is getting the attention he actually craves is America. Last year he travelled to Miami to perform and take home the gong for Best UK act at the BET Awards (the awards ceremony established by the Black Entertainment Television network in 2001), beating Dizzee and Chipmunk in the process. In fact, Giggs actuallly sees his talents as being more suited to an American audience than a UK one.

?Sometimes in the UK I feel like a lot of doors are closed to me,? he reasons. ?Just because of my past, and because people don?t really want to hear it how it is. But when I go over to America, a lot of other people have gun charges and stuff so it?s easier ? its weird, gangsta rap was so big in the States, It?s strange how it?s never really taken off at home. I think that people in the UK are scared because I?m right on their doorstep. They want to hide themselves away from it and pretend nothing bad is happening. But people are suffering and people need to recognise it. I think Americans are much better at understanding that than British people.?

With that the rapper check?s the time, looks directly at NME and mouths an expletive. ?i?ve got to get this round to my son?s house,? he says, holding up a Thomas The Tank Engine rucksack. ?Shit! His mum?s gonna kill me!

You hope he makes it to his little boy?s in time. You hope he stays focussed on his flow. Music would be infinitely less interesting without Gigg?s talents. SE15 has a new embassador for ?real talk?.

[katie1997]

ultraburner Wrote:

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> Dj sums it up well I think Otta.

>

> Most hip hop these days IS this type of bully-boy

> drivel, and its made by kids who aspire to the

> "thug life" idea that 50 cent sold them.

>

> If you actually understand the lyrics, I dont see

> how you can say this is just kids having fun.

I agree - DJKQ has hit the nail on the head here. Bang on. I thought these videos were spoofs at first and didn't grasp that the OP was linking these gangs to the increase in crimes in the area.

It's a great shame if the creativity of these children is not channelled in a positive way.

[ibilly99]

Katie easily done thinking they are spoofs - just came across this - Giggs isn't too happy that Trident are trying to get his music taken down - hats off to Trident I say (though obviously not SN1 ones). Consumerism and marketing led brand capitalism reaches its apotheosis once the brands hit the ghetto and become perverted street aspirations. This is the urban accompanient to a declining dystopian future that is coming at us at a rate of knots now. Reaches for his Tim Westwood mix tape and two fingers down salute whilst sucking on me blunt and rappin wiv me crew.

Warning contains offensive language [pre]

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[jimbo1964]

I bet he's annoyed he's called himself Giggs. Forever associated with sad Welsh adulterer.

[ibilly99]

He has the privilege to be disambiguated on Wikipedia.

Back to the original topic - in this particuarly nasty video they seem to be boasting of being shank (knife) specialists - that said on the plus side they are multicultural - they are also slippin' (entering other gang's territory) and advocate no snitching - in fact it seems to be a threat to anyone who would say anything to the police.

http://gangsinlondon.blogspot.com/2011/02/more-arrests-in-east-dulwich-stabbing.html

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[DJKillaQueen]

Yes well we all remember the leaflet campaign on the North Peckham and Sumner Road estates telling people not to talk to the Police. Now why would they do that I wonder? They want to 'rule' these areas, it's about control and primarily control of young people living on them, and control of a drugs and crime wave.

Katie is absolutely right. Every young person that gets sucked into these groups and their culture is another potential disaster waiting to happen. But for every one of them there are ten others who don't get involved but think the image that is protrayed by these gangs and their music is cool.

Pk earlier asked what can be done to stop or weaken these gangs. These gangs are cyclical in that they need new members to keep going. Young teens may first come across people their own age who are already involved. The first signs are acts of antisocial behaviour and vandalism. Next they elevate into teenage on teenage robbery. By the age of 15 they are selling soft drugs (the primary business of these gangs being that) and it goes on from there. That's the usual pattern. So obviously, if you remove already existing gang or antisocial members from your community, then the chances of local youngsters becoming involved are greatly reduced.

Of course they end up going somewhere else but if those involved in serious crime can be jailed along the way then it helps....and more importantly their ranks have not become swelled by members of your local community.

What we do is at the first signs of anti-social behaviour is report to the SNT, Housing Officer and Youth Service. Those children are then put on an intensive radar and basically learn very quickly that they will get away with nothing - that's an important message. No resident is afraid to report any incidents and that's important too. Young people know that it's not just one person taking them on but a whole community.

If their parents are council tenants, they can be threatened with losing their home and so on. Basically we get in there fast and nine times out of ten any problems stop pretty quickly. Where those measures don't work, other services will try other measures. As a last resort the council, have evicted one family.

It is also extremely important that there are local activities, services to engage with those younsters and give them alternatives too. And I'm not talking about youth wardens doing a patrol once a week. That means nothing. I'm talking about local people that can engage with the younsters on a day to day basis, as they come and go. The key here is local communities empowering themsleves to to have a positive impact as that will always be more sucessful than the council employee who can only be scheduled to spend an hour or so a week with these youngsters....esp as many of those that do get into trouble just need role models or mentors, but they need to be accessible. It's kind of the 'it takes a village to raise a child' mentality.

In the case of those involved in the Barry Road shooting etc, they were mainly young adults (centred around one flat)whom included a couple of teens who had grown up on the estate. They were involved in high level drug dealing locally but they kept a low profile. The Police were already aware of them and watching them long before the shootings.

We are not the only place to take this approach. Peckham for example is one of the busiest local police forces in the UK but even there, local groups have had some success in weakening the impact of gang and criminal activity on their local communities by using the same methods of head on engagement.

[jimbo1964]

Good positive post.

[ibilly99]

Great post killa or else you could go the route of ....

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQGagWBhlC4PbHSQ437oW21ukhJY5hSW4StFwcyfIRGCwDJcYYDtA&t=1

[Otta]

Most of that is great stuff DJKQ, I must say.

I do draw the line however, at evicting a family because they fail to control their wayward teen. That just seems a bit NIMBYish, shift them somewhere else for someone else to deal with. Surely, in these extreme cases, the family should be supported. Evicting the whole family just suggests a falier in my opinion.

I still say the kids in those videos are just trying to look and sound hard. Disagreeable stuff, perhaps, but I certainly wouldn't lose sleep over it, and suspect that the vast majority of them will probably be totally respectable adults ina few years time.