Breastfeeding in public (surely there cannot still be an issue...)

[TE44]

And of course a bond with mother and child.

[Nigello]

We also live in a world in which more and more people are unconnected with important values such as civility and respect for others and in which solipsism and selfishness is more apparent. (This does not mean that all women who breastfeed at all times are selfish: I shouldn't have to spell that out but nuance is less and less recognised, even on the EDF.)

[TE44]

I get that Nigello have you any suggestions what mothers can do when faced with people who have a problem with them feeding there child. It is very difficult to break through diffrences when each side cannot hear the other. I suppose it would depend on how I was approached (although my days of breastfeeding are long gone) I did not meet anyone who expected me to stop feeding my children. This thread has reminded me of my sister in law we were visiting with our first born, she almost ran from the room when she saw i was breast feeding, she said it turned her stomach and genuinely felt sick. She couldn't give any reason why she felt like this, but did not expect me to go into another room as she did. I suppose its easier to deal with when its people you love.

[DulwichFox]

Breast Feeding in public is Fine.....

... except when its used as a deliberate Exhibition of Progressiveness.

I have seen Women sitting at the Bar in a Pub Breast feeding when there are more suitable facilities.

I don't mean the Toilets.. I'm talking about seating within the Bar area.

Your Child has the Right to Privacy and Dignity too.

DulwichFox

[rendelharris]

DulwichFox Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Breast Feeding in public is Fine.....

>

> ... except when its used as a deliberate

> Exhibition of Progressiveness.

>

> I have seen Women sitting at the Bar in a Pub

> Breast feeding when there are more suitable

> facilities.

> I don't mean the Toilets.. I'm talking about

> seating within the Bar area.

>

> Your Child has the Right to Privacy and Dignity

> too.

>

> DulwichFox

Pretty sure six month old babies don't give a damn provided they get the grub - and in any case, what's undignified or requiring privacy about a child being fed? It doesn't lack dignity or require privacy any more than someone eating a sandwich. As for "when there are more suitable facilities" - you get to decide where's suitable, do you? You're obviously part of the problem. Does it not occur to you that a woman breastfeeding in a bar is not necessarily putting on a "deliberate expression of progressiveness" but possibly choosing to remain with her companions rather than spending her (probably very rare and therefore precious) time out sitting somewhere you deem appropriate rather than where she chooses.

[keano77]

You deliberately miss the point of DulwichFox's post Rendel.

He or she was criticising what was obviously attention seeking on the part of the mother (look at me ... I've got a baby). She was sitting at the bar. There was no need to breastfeed her baby there.

There may well be psychological reasons behind this - vulnerable new mother, has given up a career to bring up children, feels like she's losing her identity etc etc

[TE44]

I don't really feel there needs analyse over why a mother is feeding there child in a particular place, should there be rules depending on assumed intent or is this only a reality for people who believe there may be intent with the mother who may or may not have underlying issues.

[rendelharris]

keano77 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> You deliberately miss the point of DulwichFox's

> post Rendel.

>

> He or she was criticising what was obviously

> attention seeking on the part of the mother (look

> at me ... I've got a baby). She was sitting at the

> bar. There was no need to breastfeed her baby

> there.

>

> There may well be psychological reasons behind

> this - vulnerable new mother, has given up a

> career to bring up children, feels like she's

> losing her identity etc etc

No I'm not missing his point at all. He thinks that a woman breastfeeding in a place HE deems inappropriate is making some militant statement (and you apparently think that she may be addressing her psychological problems), whereas any reasonable person sees no reason a woman shouldn't breastfeed where she wants without being accused of attention seeking or having psychological issues. Quite frankly, it's those who object to seeing a mother feeding her baby who have the psychological issues. Seriously, what's your problem with it? What harm is it doing you?

[JoeLeg]

DulwichFox Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Breast Feeding in public is Fine.....

>

> ... except when its used as a deliberate

> Exhibition of Progressiveness.

>

> I have seen Women sitting at the Bar in a Pub

> Breast feeding when there are more suitable

> facilities.

> I don't mean the Toilets.. I'm talking about

> seating within the Bar area.

>

> Your Child has the Right to Privacy and Dignity

> too.

>

> DulwichFox

This is right up there with some of the biggest nonsense I've ever seen from you.

The child is HUNGRY.

As soon as we start telling mothers there are limits on when and where they can FEED THEIR CHILDREN it's a hop, skip and a jump to some really nasty social parameters. What next, shall we lock them away during memstruation?

This are babies we're talking about, not badly supervised toddlers.

[JoeLeg]

keano77 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> You deliberately miss the point of DulwichFox's

> post Rendel.

>

> He or she was criticising what was obviously

> attention seeking on the part of the mother (look

> at me ... I've got a baby). She was sitting at the

> bar. There was no need to breastfeed her baby

> there.

Do you not think - in this day and age - that creating rules about where someone can breastfeed is ethically dubious to say the least?

> There may well be psychological reasons behind

> this - vulnerable new mother, has given up a

> career to bring up children, feels like she's

> losing her identity etc etc

None of which you can know without asking, and frankly you'll be told quite rightly that it's none of your business, and in the end parents - particularly first time parents - are having a hard enough time getting to grips with it all that maybe we could just let this slide?

The 'breastfeeding mafia' cause far more trouble for mothers who elect to use bottles than they do to the rest of us. I honestly don't understand why anyone cares.

[keano77]

rendelharris Wrote:

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... whereas any reasonable person sees no reason a woman shouldn't breastfeed where she wants without being accused of attention seeking or having psychological issues ...

Okay, let's take the case of the former Australian Senator and spend a couple of seconds analysing her actions.

1. What was a baby doing in a debating chamber in the first place? Presumably the Australian Parliament has a creche and anyway she could probably afford a nanny

2. The woman then decides to breastfeed her child. Why? Why there?

We know the reason, she was a member of the Green Party and was making a point. It worked, the Guardian was ecstatic in its coverage, a world first etc etc

I mentioned psychological issues because they obviously apply in some cases.

Let's take the case of the woman in Tesco. Tesco promotes and encourages breast feeding and provides areas for the comfort and convenience of mother and child. A woman decides not to take advantage of the facilities offered, nor to walk 30 metres or so back to her car parked in the mother and baby zone, and instead breast feeds more publicly. Some customers complain and a member of staff speaks with her. She then takes to social media saying she felt humiliated and so on. But surely the fact that she took to social media was because she was seeking solace, support, approval, justification - woe is me, aren't I hard done by.

Such inappropriate behaviour is what I'm objecting to Rendel, not the day to day practice to satisfy basic human needs.

[Siduhe]

Breast Feeding in public is Fine.....

... except when its used as a deliberate Exhibition of Progressiveness.

Wow, I hardly know where to start with this. DF, you are a man of your time, consistent in your thoughts and views as posted on here, and I have an awful lot of respect for that in many ways, but this isn't the 1950s. Women have as much of a right as you do to take part in all aspects of public life without necessarily conforming to your personal expectations of appropriate behaviour and norms.

Maybe a women breastfeeding at a bar is trying to stir up debate, maybe she's trying to normalise breastfeeding, maybe she's tired and this is the first time she's made it out of the house in 4 days and she daren't move in case the baby starts crying. In any of those cases, she's perfectly entitled to breastfeed her child where she likes. It's fifteen minutes of your and everyone else's life and I'm really just sad that you and Keano77 seem to think that it's all about you and wanting to make you uncomfortable in a space you consider to be your space, rather than just being able to recognise that it's about a parent and a child sharing the same space and world that you are in.

[keano77]

I don't think the courts allow it Siduhe.

Would you be happy if you were on trial for murder and the jury was breast feeding.

Anytime, anywhere is not always appropriate.

[fatcats]

keano77 Wrote:

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> I agree lavender and nobody is doing anything

> wrong by breast feeding in public.

>

> The point I'm making is there is a time and a

> place for everything and manners and consideration

> for others ought to come into consideration.

>

> There has been a spate of stories in the news

> where women have been stopped from breast feeding

> or asked politely to do it discretely only for

> them to take to social media claiming how

> humiliated they felt and so on. Off the top of my

> head some recent high profile cases were a lady

> having tea at Claridges, a woman in the V&A and a

> former Senator making a point in the Australian

> Parliament.

>

> The woman in Claridges could easily have expressed

> milk in advance and used a bottle or asked to use

> a discrete place. Why did she assume other guests

> paying up to ?150 for dainty sandwiches and fine

> cakes and pastries would be happy to see her

> breast feed in front of them.

>

> There is an attitude among some that it's my

> right to breast feed my child anytime any place

> and if others don't like it they can lump it

So much of this post demonstrates complete ignorance - not stupidity, but ignorance. It's so sad that mothers face so much pressure to breastfeed and then so much ignorance from the public who (sort of) understand that breastfeeding is best but don't have the first clue about the mechanics of how it all works. And don't bother to find out before venting their views on a forum. Do some of the posters on here with less than progressive views ever stop and wonder why the UK has the lowest rates of breastfeeding in the world?

Firstly, breastfeeding mothers are strongly discouraged by all health professionals from using a bottle (and dummy for that matter) for up to the first 6 weeks of a baby's life to avoid 'nipple confusion'. Nothing to do with either having money, or not having money. So expressing is out, as is formula.

Secondly, the idea that 'the woman in Claridges could easily have expressed a bottle in advance' er...what? Expressing is a slow process, the milk doesn't appear by magic and it's not always an option to sit there with a pump attached to your breast for hours. If you have a baby, you are, by default, busy. If you have more than one child, you're even less available to sit still for hours and express a bottle. Another thing is that babies can quite easily consume one bottle and then shortly afterwards be crying out for another one. They don't have appetites that run to a clock and the current health advice strongly recommends feeding on demand.

Thirdly, many babies that are used to being breastfeed won't take a bottle, because it isn't comforting to them in the way that breastfeeding is.

Fourthly, breastfeeding calms babies down in a way that bottlefeeding doesn't. So where you see a selfish exhibitionist mother who doesn't care about the people around her, what you could choose to see is someone who wants to calm her baby down or even feed it to sleep, and in doing so create a much more peaceful atmosphere for everyone around her. And no, not all babies take a dummy either.

Finally, babies clusterfeed which means you can't even plan to pop to Claridges at a time when you know your baby won't be hungry. It doesn't work like that. You're dealing with small human beings who have regular growth spurs, and tiny stomachs. Not robots, or pets. Babies don't run to a neat schedule (regardless of what the likes of Gina Ford say, whose wisdom is based on formula fed babies).

Why oh why is it easier for some people on here to believe that women are exhibitionists who are dying for the opportunity to expose their breasts, rather than actually thinking about how likely that is, and wondering if perhaps there are other reasons instead? And maybe even looking up what these reasons might be, before venting opinions that make life even more guilt ridden for breastfeeding (or non breastfeeding mothers for that matter) than it already so often is?

[rendelharris]

keano77 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Such inappropriate behaviour is what I'm objecting

> to Rendel, not the day to day practice to satisfy

> basic human needs.

Why is breastfeeding anywhere inappropriate? You're saying what you object to, but not why. What is it to which you object? The revelation of a few square inches of flesh, usually a lot less than you will see on any beach, park or indeed in a pub in the summer? The reminder that we're physical beings with needs which need to be fulfilled? I really do not understand what it is that causes you a problem.

[Siduhe]

@keano77, there's no legal restriction on a woman juror breastfeeding her baby in trial so far as I know. I can certainly see it might be grounds for a successful exemption application by the mother or indeed an objection by prosecution or defence counsel to her sitting as juror but I don't think there's anything specific prohibiting it.

[keano77]

Some good points there fatcats but the woman in Claridges could still have asked for a discrete comfortable area rather than be in full view of other diners. If Claridges can't provide such facilities then there's no hope for anywhere else.

[fatcats]

keano77 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Some good points there fatcats but the woman in

> Claridges could still have asked for a discrete

> comfortable area rather than be in full view of

> other diners. If Claridges can't provide such

> facilities then there's no hope for anywhere else.

So she should have isolated herself from her group? If so what would be the point of joining them in the first place?

[rendelharris]

Siduhe Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> @keano77, there's no legal restriction on a woman

> juror breastfeeding her baby in trial so far as I

> know. I can certainly see it might be grounds for

> a successful exemption application by the mother

> or indeed an objection by prosecution or defence

> counsel to her sitting as juror but I don't think

> there's anything specific prohibiting it.

I believe breastfeeding can be a reason for exemption - never heard of anyone doing it while on actual jury service though. It's one of the very few places I could see an argument for a ban; firstly because unless the juror was one of those lucky mothers whose babies latch on first time every time she would surely be, at least to some extent, distracted and not fully focussed on the evidence, and secondly as a crying baby who would probably need changing shortly after feeding wouldn't be terribly conducive to the smooth running of a courtroom. Really it'd probably best if the primary carer for a newborn was given automatic exemption from duty for a year or two, wouldn't it?

But as I said, that's one of the very few instances where I could see some justification.

[rendelharris]

keano77 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Some good points there fatcats but the woman in

> Claridges could still have asked for a discrete

> comfortable area rather than be in full view of

> other diners. If Claridges can't provide such

> facilities then there's no hope for anywhere else.

Still want an answer as to why this is in any way upsetting to people? In what way does a baby being breastfed hamper one's enjoyment of one's tea and cake? Frankly, given the lamentable decline in table manners, I'd far sooner have a breastfeeding baby in my eyeline than people getting their snouts into the trough. But still, please, WHY do you find it a problem? Arguments about whether it should or shouldn't be done here, there or everywhere are redundant unless you can provide a logical explanation as to why it's in any way offensive.

[Siduhe]

@rendellharris, I completely agree. But I don't think it's the case that the "courts don't allow it". The rules around jury service are pretty archaic so I doubt they've ever considered the requirements of new mothers - it's still the Juries Act 1974 that governs, right?

Anyway, I think we've answered malumbu's question for him/her - "surely there cannot still be an issue..."? Well, there certainly seems to be.

[fatcats]

It's misogyny plain and simple.

Either unconscious or conscious, but jumping to the worst possible conclusions about why a woman might behave in a certain way, rather than choosing to see behaviour in a positive light - ie comforting, feeding, nurturing a helpless baby FFS - screams misogyny to me.

[keano77]

fatcats Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> keano77 Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Some good points there fatcats but the woman in

> > Claridges could still have asked for a discrete

> > comfortable area rather than be in full view of

> > other diners. If Claridges can't provide such

> > facilities then there's no hope for anywhere

> else.

>

> So she should have isolated herself from her

> group? If so what would be the point of joining

> them in the first place?

She could have chosen to remove herself temporarily. Instead the whole room full of diners shared the experience and when the poor waiter offered her a serviette she felt humiliated

[fatcats]

keano77 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> fatcats Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > keano77 Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> > -----

> > > Some good points there fatcats but the woman

> in

> > > Claridges could still have asked for a

> discrete

> > > comfortable area rather than be in full view

> of

> > > other diners. If Claridges can't provide such

> > > facilities then there's no hope for anywhere

> > else.

> >

> > So she should have isolated herself from her

> > group? If so what would be the point of joining

> > them in the first place?

>

> She could have chosen to remove herself

> temporarily. Instead the whole room full of diners

> shared the experience and when the poor waiter

> offered her a serviette she felt humiliated

Because obviously none of them would have been facing another direction.

None could have averted their eyes, perhaps even focusing on their dining companions instead.

None of them could have welcomed the sight of a mother feeding her baby, a scene they may have admired in famous paintings and other artworks in art galleries all over the world.

In art it's apparently beautiful, symbolic of all sorts of wonderful things. In real life it's inappropriate, disgusting and inconsiderate.

[keano77]

Much of what you say is true. I'm simply questioning your inability to see that not everybody might have thought it appropriate while they're eating their dainty sandwiches and yummy cakes. Some might have thought it inconsiderate of the other diners.