Slutwalk

[Loz]

But is that an indication of low convictions in rape cases, indiepanda, or policing in general. Attrition rates for various crimes I can find are:

Attempted murder - 14%

Robbery - 10%

Cruelty and Neglect of Children - 9%

Rape - 6.5% / 12%

Violence against the person - 4%

There are two rates for rape - 6.5% of reports end up in a conviction of rape, but that figure goes up to 12% when you consider any conviction (i.e. sexual assault). Conviction rates for rape once it gets to court (both trial and pleading guilty) are quite high ? 59% in 2009.

But, yes, France does indeed have a much higher conviction. I can't really dig up any explanation as to why that may be, whether they have a different policing/trial approach or different statistical methods. Though one thing is for certain, they have a different definition of 'rape', since 4% of rapists in France were women - an impossibility in the UK as rape, by statutory definition, is a male only crime.

[RosieH]

Loz, you're right in terms of attrition rate for sure - but it's not necessarily as simple as bald facts. The issue of the lower likelihood of incidence of rape going unreported as compared with incidence of violence against the person notwithstanding, there is also the question of identifying the attacker.

In the majority of rape cases the attacker is known to the victim - I honestly don't know the answer to this, so would be interested if you do, but can the same be said of all violent crime? If not, when the attacker has been identified, rather than the police having to go out and find them, then that attrition rate starts to look considerably worse. And when you come to conviction rates, well rape fares less well than other violent crime.

I'm not all about a soapbox - and I'm not saying that rape is worse than all other violent crime - but I do think attitudes towards this particular crime need to change and that's why this walk is important.

?In no other crime is the victim subject to so much scrutiny during an investigation or at trial; nor is the potential for victims to be re-traumatised during these processes as high in any other crime.? (HMCPS & HMIC, 2007)

And when you come to look at why, here are some public attitudes - the data is a few years old, so it would be interesting to see it updated.

? A third (34%) of people in the UK believe that a woman is partially or totally responsible for being raped if she has behaved in a flirtatious manner (AIUK 2005).

? More than a quarter (26%) of people think a woman was partially or totally responsible for being raped if she was wearing sexy or revealing clothing (AIUK 2005).

? More than one in five (22%) hold the same view if a woman has many sexual partners (AIUK 2005).

? Around one in 12 people (8%) believe a woman is totally responsible for being raped if she has many sexual partners (AIUK 2005).

? Nearly a third of people (30%) say a woman was partially or totally responsible for being raped if she was drunk (AIUK 2005).

source

So indiepanda, I would say to you, forget about the people who are hijacking the original purpose of the walk with the idea of reclaiming the word 'slut'. I believe it's beyond redemption, though I might be proved wrong. The purpose of the walk is to remind society that the attacker, not the victim, should be held responsible for the crime.

[Loz]

Rosie,

I don't disagree with your stats - and indeed those attitudes must change. I'm glad you showed all the stats - the Guardian only showed the male attitudes, even though the female ones are just as bad, if not worse. But then, the Gruin always does have a dodgy record in that area.

Of course, where rape is difficult is establishing that a crime has actually taken place. If I've black and blue and bashed up, then it's highly probable that a crime has been committed. But in a lot of cases of rape accusations, all the evidence is that two people had sex. Yes, in the worst cases it's completely obvious, but they are a minority. That is the difficulty. That is why rape attrition rates will always lag slightly behind other crimes,but the fact that the accused is generally known, those cases that do get to court will have a pretty high conviction rate.

Anyway, I've taken your thread off at a tangent. My apologies. I hope your walk goes well.

[mockney piers]

KK, there is potentially a world of difference between wanting to twat Lloyd Grossman and wanting to fuck him, but I must say I'm loving the ambiguity of it all.

[RosieH]

Don't worry Loz, my mission has been accomplished. But the point you make about evidence, while entirely valid and without a doubt a huge contributory factor, isn't the whole story. While attitudes such as those above prevail (and yes, I count women too), you're always going to have a harder time convincing a jury once you get to court. Or convincing the CPS to take it to court. Or convincing a policeman to treat it as a crime (it was a policeman's comments that started the whole Slutwalk thing off in the first place).

Jeremy Paxman, on Newsnight on Tuesday or Wednesday this week, referred to the attempted rape allegations against Dominique Strauss Kahn as an "embarrassing incident". An intelligent man misspeaks? Well, I hope so - but the reason so many women (and men) get so angry is because it's the only crime where the victim gets the blame. If attitudes can shift, attrition rates may follow - then again they may not shift much for the reasons you point out. But it's a vital step in the right direction.

Oh, and Piers, for any women who've ever worked with him, that ambiguity is probably a daily conundrum!

[Ridgley]

How about a grumpy old women walk - for those who?s other half or husbands pissed them off:))

[StraferJack]

Rosie

Clearly I agree with pretty much everything you say, but there are problems here which the slutwalk fails to address

One of the reasons the whole topic is so emotive is touched on when you say it's one of the only crimes where the victim gets the blame. And that in itself isn't always true. But the reason that some attitudes remain is that, as you know, some women like to play with the truth as well. There is a long history of women crying rape when no such thing happened. Which isn't me saying anyone assaulted is lying. But if a neutral is meant to decide which cases are real and which aren't... Well... How do you?

I don't know how you pick the bones out of that but it's something slutwalk is ignoring.

[RosieH]

Jesus Christ, SJ, I really, truly expected better from you.

There is a long history of women crying rape when no such thing happened

I'd be interested to know what proportion of rapes you believe to go unreported. And what proportion of reported rape allegations you believe to be false. And let's look at it all on a pie chart.

I don't know how you pick the bones out of that but it's something slutwalk is ignoring.

Edited to respond to that - Slutwalk was about addressing the issue of students being advised by a police officer that if they didn't want to get raped, they shouldn't dress like sluts - i.e. it's not really the rapist's fault if you look too delectable not to violently fuck. Try telling that to women in burkhas, to the pensioner victims of the night stalker who thought they were safely tucked up in their beds, or to any other woman who's ever had her character assassinated in court while her attacker gets off - you tell her to her face that really the issue we need to get at is that some women have sometimes lied.

If you feel they should also start a Salem witch trial as part of the Slutwalk goings on, suggest you drop the organisers a note.

[Jah Lush]

Touching on the same thing Jack. If a man is accused of rape it's his picture in the paper whether he is innocent or not and not the alleged victim. If the accused is later found innocent and cleared of the alleged crime, the fact is that his image has appeared has an alleged rapist and mud sticks whether you've been proved innocent or not. It's only afterwards that a picture of the woman who has made a false claims comes out.

[mockney piers]

"his image has appeared has an alleged rapist and mud sticks"

Depressingly I get the feeling young Premiership footballers* consider this a badge of honour these days :-(

*Not a problem for my club any more, hurrah.

[StraferJack]

Rosie. If I had that data and it proved anything either way would you be happy with the verdict?

But your first question is weird (to me). You are asking me how many rapes do I think go unreported? Without

Numbers I'm guessing but my opinion is "shedloads". Where does that get us exactly

If you are questioning for one second my support for anyone who has been raped I would take grave offence. But that is how it appears

[RosieH]

SJ, you know me better than that, and if I weren't already so hopping mad, I might be furious that you could even suggest it.

I thought I was supposed to be the one unable to keep a cool head in this particular argument (which is the very reason I was reluctant to post on the subject in the first place).

So think on.

Anyway, quick answer, as I need to try to do some work on my last day in the job. My point was trying hard and clearly failing to be that false allegations, while appalling and unforgivable, are such a teeny tiny fraction of the whole, that's it's pretty insulting to those that have been raped and are subject to character assassination, to say that those few lying women need to be sorted out before every other woman can hope to be treated with humanity.

[Loz]

Out of interest, Rosie, what's your thoughts on anonymity for both parties until the verdict?

[Jeremy]

Of course there have been problems with false accusations, but I don't really see how that's relevant to the slutwalk phenomenon. Isn't this just a simple backlash against the notion that the victim may be partly to blame if they act/dress a certain way? I think women have the right to be angry.

But while I sympathise with the underlying motivation, I'd question whether this is the best way to make the statement. I don't see how wearing a short skirt and referring to themselves as "sluts" can be even slightly empowering.

[Jah Lush]

Well like most threads they do tend to go off at tangents but in this case and the whole point of the march is that you should be able to wear exactly what you want without being told by someone (a police officer in this case) that if you dress a certain way you're asking for it. Rape in this case.

[RosieH]

Loz, it's a really difficult one, and I've changed my mind a few times, and still may change it again.

Broadly, I'm in favour of anonymity. The difficulty with that is that, as you rightly point out, in cases where there has been no obvious evidence of violence / coercion, it's a his word against hers situation (or his / his), and women can struggle to get a fair hearing when their character's attacked, while his is presented as impeccable.

Lack of anonymity can help overcome this, when it becomes 12 women's words against one man's, the balance of probability shifts considerably: and when women are still so reluctant to come forward, publicising the man's name can be the only way. Is it too high a price to pay for potentially ruining a man's life? At the moment I think yes. I can't guarantee I won't switch back again though. So don't shoot me if this subject comes up in a year's time and I say something different.

[StraferJack]

False accusations don't pertain to the slutwalk thing perse. But Rosieh brought up a slew of stats and statements (where I have already said I agreed with her)

I felt that false accusations play a part in rape claims not always being taken as seriosly they might. Which I thought did pertain to some of the statements made

As for slutwalk itself. It's probably as useful as gay pride. Positive and maybe useful as it grows but unlikely to change the bigot/misogynist viewing at the side of the street or watching the news. Everyone else agrees with the participants anyway

[Jeremy]

Rosieh brought up a slew of stats and statements (where I have already said I agreed with her)

Fair enough - I was guilty of not reading the whole thread

maybe useful as it grows but unlikely to change the bigot/misogynist viewing at the side of the street or watching the news. Everyone else agrees with the participants anyway

Yep, that sounds about right. And obviously I get that they're using the "slut" imagery, as that was the word used by the Canadian police guy - I'm just not convinced it's the most constructive approach.

[RosieH]

StraferJack Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

But Rosieh brought up a slew of

> stats and statements (where I have already said I

> agreed with her)

Do you mean the stats that said that a percentage of people held a woman responsible if she: was drunk / dressed provocatively / had many sexual partners?

Granted, they don't all relate to attire, but they do all relate to the idea that the rapist, not the victim should be held accountable.

Whereas the idea that slutwalk should address false claims seems incongruous..?

[StraferJack]

No Rosie. Not that one at all. And you know it. I've already said which one

But it seems clear that I am seen as the enemy on this one so I'll leave it there

[RosieH]

You're hardly that. Never that.

[StraferJack]

Grand

But I'm trying to make a small point, which I'm suggesting has reasonably large input into the problem, and taking time to say I basically agree with everything else being said. It doesn't seem to warrant the opprobrium

[maxxi]

Jeremy Wrote:

-... while I sympathise with the underlying

> motivation, I'd question whether this is the best

> way to make the statement. I don't see how wearing

> a short skirt and referring to themselves as

> "sluts" can be even slightly empowering.

Seems to me the very idea that one can call someone a slut (dict.def. someone of loose sexual morals/sexually promiscuous) based on their attire is the same as saying that a woman in a burka is a model of morality and fidelity and is only valid from the point of view that one disagrees with sexual permissiveness and this kind of morality and/or believes women have no right to express their sexuality without suffering 'consequences.

Sluts come in all attires, sexes and sexual persuasions and the slutwalk is not just daring men and women of a more conservative bent to call women sluts because of their clothing but daring them to follow that up with condemnation of such dress/behaviour as though it caused violence towards women in and of itself.

There is a sliding scale of disappproval from some men towards the way a woman expresses herself ranging from: "Oh, you're, er, going to the party dressed like that are you?" to "Cover your face you daughter of a whore!". Slutwalk will hopefully make some men think about their own attitudes to women dressed as 'sluts' - i.e.that they retain the same right to safety and freedom from molestation and violence as a woman in a tweed twinset.

[Alan Medic]

Dress like a slut and you shouldn't get raped. Leave your windows and doors open and you shouldn't be robbed. Get robbed and your insurance will be invalid because you left your windows and doors open. In which case it makes sense to lock them when you are not at home. Is there not a case for not dressing like a 'slut' (whatever that means)so as not to provoke an unwanted reaction?

[maxxi]

Is there not a case for not dressing like a 'slut' (whatever that means)so as not to provoke an unwanted reaction?

Are you by any chance a Canadian police officer in your spare time?