Slutwalk

[Damian H]

Another interesting book is "Bad Girls and Dirty Pictures" written by two women involved in the Feminists Against Censorship campaign. It is a very compelling read and looks at how the activities of the likes of Harman (I think the book pre-dated Harman though) have actually alienated women from their own sexuality rather than liberating them, as LadyDeliah has quite rightly observed.

[RosieH]

Huguenot ladies and gentlemen, as ever, the voice of the female condition.

Tell me H, you suspect and guess at much. You have experience of precisely nothing. You ignore stats that don't fit your idea of man-hating wimmin tilting at windmills. How is one man's (that's you) supposition entitled to negate the experience of thousands, maybe more, of women? This isn't binary, it's not something you can read up on in your physics textbook. Are you really possessed of that level of breathtaking arrogance?

[Huguenot]

It's just a different point of view RosieH - that doesn't make it arrogance.

In your own way you're being just as intransigent as you're acccusing me of being.

The fact is that you DON'T know what the people who responded to that survey intended. You've chosen to interpret it as blaming women for being raped.

I find that view extraordinary in its misanthropy.

I appreciate you may have had different life experiences to me - but if there are people telling you how to dress, attempting to prevent you from going out at night, stopping you wearing high heels and make up I would be shocked.

If you're living in a culture where rape is considered okay and allowed to happen it's not a culture that is prevalent in the UK.

This march has been promoted because some daft Canadian cop tried in a clumsy way to remind a bunch of teenagers about balancing rights and responsibilities, it was stupid and oafish.

It is not a manifestation of a great injustice suffered by women who are 'constantly made to feel like victims' - that's ridiculous hyperbole.

Rape is a terrible crime of violence, but that doesn't make it okay for women to shout out sweeping generalisations and blanket accusations aimed at men.

[katie1997]

Has anyone been on jury service for a rape case? A very long time ago I was and in that particular case, it was impossible to prove beyond reasonable doubt that the accused did it.

The woman and her ex-husband (both admitted that they occasionally had consensual sex) had the minutiae of their lives thrown up before court for all to hear. It was harrowing seeing them together in court (knowing how difficult that must be for them), hearing all private details, from what they'd had to drink, even what brand of vodka did they normally buy, what they were wearing, why did they still see each other, why did she still have sex with him, whether they really did have an argument and she changed her mind or not, were the bruises because he had forced her, doctors reports and so on.

I can't imagine why anyone would go through all that if it wasn't true but only one jury member disagreed that this man could not be convicted because the evidence presented did not add up to proof beyond reasonable doubt. I don't really know what I'm trying to say here except it still haunts me to think of them and I feel we were never really able to know the full truth of what happened that night. Sometimes I think, he must have done it and other times I think but what if he didn't...and then back to, if he did.

[LadyDeliah]

One of the reasons I chose to go into immigration law rather than crminal, which was a subject I also enjoyed, was because when I was clerking for a solicitors firm, we had a multiple rapist aquitted twice. This man was extremely scary, violent and picked his victims well.

He always chose vulnerable women who didn't have the intelligence to defend themselves and had other issues such as drug addiction. He would have them as his partners and over time systematically abuse them. The injuries he caused to his partner in the 1st case came to light after she jumped from a 2nd story window to escape after he'd kept her locked in the flat for days. He was still aquitted.

Between the 1st and 2nd of his cases, that I was clerking on, the police got intel from abroad that showed he'd had previous convictions and other arrests for the same thing but we still got him off, because the police had gone fishing for other witnesses and the evidence was considered unsafe plus the lawyers I was working for were very good at their job.

I would say that I am certain he committed the two violent rapes that he was aquitted of and he was a dangerous predator, but the attitude of society to women on the fringes made it easy for him to convince the jury that the 1st victim was lying. He was articulate and intelligent in front of the jury, and the victim was a mess.

The attitude of many, even in the UK, to women who don't fit the sugar and spice stereotype is unforgiving and needs to be challenged.

[RosieH]

Huguenot, you persist in seeing this as anti-men. It isn't - as I said earlier in a response to Loz - women hold these attitudes too. Some men, some women. Some newspapers. Some judges. Some parents. Some friends. Some people in authority.

Those stats I quoted, for the most part, talked about holding women "partially responsible". That might be acceptable to you, but it isn't to me. Would you consider it acceptable in a murder case if the victim was held partially responsible? Well they used to box m'lud, so it's in a way, a bit their fault that they were beaten to death. It's incredibly simple - if a man decides to rape someone, he and he alone is responsible. It is utterly abhorrent to suggest otherwise, and I can't believe you would hold out this "partially" to justify your argument. Far from these women being anti-men, it comes across like you are anti-feminist, I wouldn't be so crass as to say anti-women, but sometimes I really do wonder.

As for the cop. Well, his advice was offensive. However equally as offensive as his advice that a woman could be partly culpable for her own assault, is his use of the word slut. There is no male equivalent. The judgment it casts on women goes to the very core of sexism and the madonna / whore dichotomy. Are we protesting against one cop in Canada, or was this simply the catalyst that makes us say we're sick to the back teeth of putting up with this crap in our daily lives?

And you'd better believe our experiences of this are different. Mine is real and deeply personal, and it is backed up by work I have done with women's groups. Yours, seemingly, is founded on nothing more than supposition and dented ego. Tilting at windmills? Do you want to come here and tell me to my face that I'm imagining monsters where there are none?

[DJKillaQueen]

Surely the point of any demonstration is to raise debate. Look at the debate here. That's what the various 'slutwalks' around the globe do.......

[LadyDeliah]

And now the debate has been killed by putting it in the drawing room. Thanks Admin.

[LadyDeliah]

And back again!

[Moos]

That's a bit rude, Lady Deliah. Admin was responding to a suggestion.

[LadyDeliah]

Looks like the debate has ended now anyway!

[PeckhamRose]

http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/society-and-culture/sexual-violence-against-women-predates-porn-20110603-1fkcw.html

Nahhh

Here's another article.

[LadyDeliah]

I like that one better than the other one, thanks PR.

[Jeremy]

Huguenot Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> It's quotes like these that get my goat, this one

> from the slutwalk London organisers.

>

> 'All over the world, women are constantly made to

> feel like victims, told they should not look a

> certain way, should not go out at night, should

> not go into certain areas, should not get drunk,

> should not wear high heels or make up, should not

> be alone with someone they don't know.'

Where did you read that, Huguenot? Surely advice such as "don't get too drunk", "don't walk alone at night", "avoid quiet/unlit/dodgy areas" applies to anyone, regardless of gender.

[Huguenot]

Golly, jezza - where hasn't it been posted??

Slutwalk Organisers' Blog

FeministMemory site (partnered with Slutwalk)

... to name a couple. Slutwalk organisers asked for it to be repeated everywhere as a call to action. Hence there's a whole queue of sopabox ranters repeating it all over the net.

It's hyperbole like this that makes it impossible to listen to with any degree of respect. The organisers seem to struggle to tell the difference between rape, female oppression, social conditioning, social norms, common sense, natural inclination and everyday anxieties suffered by everyone regardless of gender.

[mockney piers]

I have felt a degree of unease about this that I've been struggling to pinpoint as I've mused the last couple of days, but I had the impression that too many issues were being conflated and the mere whiff of 'rape' tends to stifle debate because it's both taboo and massively emotive.

But I was leaning towards the idea that this has less to do with rape and much more to do with social mores and changing perceptions and found the 'dress how i want' -> 'rape' journey somewhat non-sequitur (though thematically I can obviously see the connection).

Huguenot's quote rather sums it up nicely i think

"The organisers seem to struggle to tell the difference between rape, female oppression, social conditioning, social norms, common sense, natural inclination and everyday anxieties suffered by everyone regardless of gender"

[Loz]

Not wanting to turn this into a gender debate, but I get a similar unease when I see comments like, "don't tell women how to dress - tell men to stop raping". That's a bit too close to Dworkin territory for comfort.

"Tell the very, very small percentage of men who rape women to stop it" would be more accurate, but not nearly so headline grabbing.

[Tarot]

Hughnots thrown in some sharia law ,it seems.

[mockney piers]

Well, he is a swarthy foreign looking chap after all.

[Huguenot]

Eh what?

Does tarot think the comments about controlling women are my views? (And he wonders why I think he's an idiot?)

They were the reasons the slutwalk organisers gave behind staging slutwalk.

Bringing up sharia law with regards to gender discrimination is utterly misleading. The Christian faith has plenty of gender discrimination laws.

[Jeremy]

I think they'd be better off if they stuck to the core issue. Conflating it with the wider issue of "I should be able to go where I want and do what I want without fear of crime" is daft.

And constantly referring to themselves as "sluts" in websites/blogs/press just sounds a bit childish and gimmicky.

[helena handbasket]

I have been following this since the first walk in April and have not been able to quite pinpoint what it is that doesn't sit with me, as I am also confused about the message. Of course rapists are bad. Of course rape victims are not guilty. And of course the Toronto police officer should have thought it out before he spoke.

But I think what I find uncomfortable is how it has twisted and contorted into some sort of umbrella feminist movement.

The girls who had the original conversation with the campus officer are among the least oppressed in the world, on one of the safest campuses in one of the safest countries. Even in the nineties, when I was spending my days and nights on Canadian campuses, I never felt oppressed, or afraid. Most people were socially enlightened even "way back then". Canada has also had various "take Back the Night" walks for at least twenty years. This is essentially what I would have thought the original Slutwalk was about; to send the message that women will walk when and how they want. I have a feeling college students today are barely even aware of it.

If they are really serious about female oppression and violence against women, then there is a huge gap in the story;

the most oppressed women and by far the worst victims of violence in Canada are First Nations women and those in the street trade. Statistically it's shocking. So if these girls are serious about this, where are they in the conversation? I've not once heard them mentioned. And of course I realize that anyone CAN be a victim. But these women ARE the victims nine times out of ten.

I guess that is where I get uncomfortable with how the original story has mutated throughout the world. If these girls were really committed creating change, they should have started with the actual victims living around them instead of going straight to Facebook and the media.

To be clear, I do not in any way condone the police officer's comments. Or rape. Or horndog college boys. etc. etc.

[Otta]

The previous 2 posts, from Jeremy, and Helena, are both pretty much how I feel about the whole thing.

It just has an annoying studenty feel about it, kind of marching and flag waving without really thinking about it, and getting their issues somewhat muddled, which is a damned shame, beause it really is a serious thing.

[Tarot]

Its society that needs to change,the way women are portrayed is not respectful.

Take for example the freeview x-rated porno sites,fed into every home.

The image these women give is bad,they only fuel some maniac watching who will go out and attack any women no matter

what there dressed in,or what age they are.

As the saying goes,sex can turn the most passive man into a raging beast.

[Loz]

Tarot Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Take for example the freeview x-rated porno

> sites,fed into every home.

Do you mean the phone line channels? X-rated? Good grief. Google 'x-rated' and I suspect you'll find a couple of websites that'll make your false teeth fall out.

And the porn/rape link theory was trashed years ago.