Your views on Foie Gras

[Marmora Man]

CS: "Animals do, of course, but then we're not animals..." Oh yes we are - we're just another animal species - the "human ape".

[Mick Mac]

Whilst it's nice to know the culinary options available in Mamora Road, none of the other foods listed are the result of animal mistreatment therefore I'm not sure of their relevance.

As I said before I like foie gras but rarely eat it now, as I can't quite detach myself from the thought of the unnecessary cruelty whilst trying to enjoy it.

As for killing an animal just to eat it, well these animals are bred for us to eat, they would not exist if they were not bred for food.

[civilservant]

Marmora Man Wrote:

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> CS: "Animals do, of course, but then we're not

> animals..." Oh yes we are - we're just another

> animal species - the "human ape".

Quite right biologically, but I was speaking metaphorically!

[Mick Mac]

PS. Non force feed goose has just been delivered for Christmas lunch. Can't wait. :)

[Loz]

Look if you don't like FG or don't like the way it produced then exercise your right as a consumer and don't buy it. Just stop trying to preach to the rest of us. In other words, stop trying to shove your petty beliefs down other's throats.

(Oh, the irony...)

[Loz]

Alan Medic Wrote:

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> What the @#$%& are you writing about Loz? PD is a male for a start(which you would know if you

> bothered your arse to read the forum) and as for the rest of your post I'd suggest it was written

> after too much consumption of drink.

Yeah, because after near on 4000 posts in five years I quite obviously don't read the forum. Ever.

Wow. Just... wow.

[Loz]

Huguenot Wrote:

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> The only thing you can really complain about with Foie Gras is the force-feeding, as other

> complaints about battery farming apply equally to chickens or other fowl.

Actually, I would argue there is *more* cruelty in battery hen farming that there is in the small French farm foie gras (as opposed to the bigger factory farms that are appearing, which even I have my doubts about). Being shoved into a cage in a shed with hundreds of other birds for your entire life, before being dispatched for cheap meat. That's much worse than being force fed, but otherwise free roaming. And we are talking millions of chickens suffering every year, as opposed to a very small number of FG geese.

So for all of you non-veggies saying they would never buy foie gars, can you, hand on heart, say you never, ever eat battery chickens. So that's not just the cheap Sainsburys chicken, that's any chicken burgers, fried chicken, chicken curry, chicken in Chinese food... probably any chicken out there not specifically sold as free range.

Or does that cruelty not require your action?

[Alec John Moore]

I heard Tim Lang of - Professor of food policy at City University and the one who coined the term food miles, I believe - on radio a while ago talking about the many little ethical decisions, and compromises we make, throughout each day in relation to food, the environment etc. The debate about food is more complex and interesting than the animal rights led campaigns often suggest. That's why I think it is important not to present polarised views in a combative way as so often happens on this forum. The reality for many is that our relationship with food cannot be contained in a simple label such as meat eaters or veggies. We are missing an opportunity to consider and share views on food security which is arguably one of the most important challenges we face and which will only become more pressing unless we change the global political economy of food and our own personal food preferences.

[Parkdrive]

Loz Wrote:

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> Look if you don't like FG or don't like the way it

> produced then exercise your right as a consumer

> and don't buy it. Just stop trying to preach to

> the rest of us. In other words, stop trying to

> shove your petty beliefs down other's throats.

>

> (Oh, the irony...)

Irony indeed, for one who doesn't want others views rammed down others throats you're having a bloody good go at it.

[Marmora Man]

I read Loz's message as a "hands off" plea not a manifesto suggesting forcing others to eat Foie Gras.

[Loz]

Parkdrive Wrote:

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> Loz Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Look if you don't like FG or don't like the way it produced then exercise your right as a consumer

> > and don't buy it. Just stop trying to preach to the rest of us. In other words, stop trying to

> > shove your petty beliefs down other's throats.

>

> >

> > (Oh, the irony...)

>

> Irony indeed, for one who doesn't want their views

> rammed down others throats you're having a bloody

> good go at it.

Says you? You can read my opinions or ignore them as you want (as I can yours), but when you try to ban things you just don't like then that's when you start to impose you own private beliefs on others. That's when it becomes objectionable. And that's when I'll tell you where exactly to shove your beliefs.

As I said, if you want to refuse to buy FG, fine - that is your right. If you want to post on a forum that you refuse to buy FG, that's fine too. But stop trying to impose this on others.

[Mick Mac]

It's not enough just to say that those who don't like the practice of fois gras just should not buy it.

Sometimes the more sensitive/enlightened have to campaign to protect the animal. If those who love fois gras despite the distress it causes to the bird, then lose out on their slightly selfish pleasure, then I'm afraid that's probably not going to win them a lot of sympathy.

The world is changing. Slowly.

[*Bob*]

It's like the foxhunting thing, to a certain degree.

The association of foxhunting with sherry-quaffing toffs on horseback added a certain social and class frisson to the whole proceedings. Similarly, the luxury pricetag of FG and thus association with overfed gorging gourmets does the same.

The only viable justification of FG is the honest one: I know where it comes from - and I don't care because I like it.

You'd hear the same justification in KFC though.

[Parkdrive]

Loz Wrote:

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> Parkdrive Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Loz Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> > -----

> > > Look if you don't like FG or don't like the

> way it produced then exercise your right as a

> consumer

> > > and don't buy it. Just stop trying to preach

> to the rest of us. In other words, stop trying

> to

> > > shove your petty beliefs down other's throats.

>

> >

> > >

> > > (Oh, the irony...)

> >

> > Irony indeed, for one who doesn't want their

> views

> > rammed down others throats you're having a

> bloody

> > good go at it.

>

> Says you? You can read my opinions or ignore them

> as you want (as I can yours), but when you try to

> ban things you just don't like then that's when

> you start to impose you own private beliefs on

> others. That's when it becomes objectionable.

> And that's when I'll tell you where exactly to

> shove your beliefs.

>

> As I said, if you want to refuse to buy FG, fine -

> that is your right. If you want to post on a forum

> that you refuse to buy FG, that's fine too. But

> stop trying to impose this on others.

I've not tried to ram down your, or anyone else's throat. If you don't like my opinions fine, I certainly don't like yours. Nor have I told YOU where to shove your beliefs although keep it up..........

[Parkdrive]

Loz, I've just re-read all of my posts regarding this subject and I think I'm right in saying that there's not a mention of banning the sale. Maybe, as AM stated, you should read first, engage brains and THEN write your posts.

[DaveR]

Bob is spot on; foie gras is an easy target for ethical outrage because you can stereotype consumers as heartless toffs. But if you are going to be consistent you should be equally outraged by Cheapo Fried Chicken. But that looks like you're having a go at poor people, so not quite as much fun. I happily eat foie gras, and tbh it barely registers on my moral/ethical compass.

[aquarius moon]

Marmora Man, It's not about meat-eating in general, it's about HOW foie gras is made & the suffering endured to produce it.

Loz, I not only find your posts appalling, but your attitude too.

If anyone disagrees strongly with something, of course they are going to campaign against it.

*Bob* mentions fox-hunting. The majority of people hated the cruelty, tried to stop it & it was eventually banned.

If these people hadn't forced their views on others, it would still be going on.

[Otta]

*Bob* Wrote:

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> If the best flavour from lamb could only be

> obtained by plunging a red-hot poker into its

> eyeballs whilst simultaneously hitting it on the

> knees with a snooker cue in the week leading up to

> the trip to the abattoir, would this be ok? In the

> interests of flavour and gourmet bravado, I mean.

>

> A ridiculous scenario, the point being that

> everyone would surely draw the line somewhere.

> That fact that a lot of people draw the line

> before force-feeding to the point of liver-burst

> hardly makes them camo-jacketed ALF radicals.

> Let's be honest, it doesn't look good on paper.

>

> It does seem odd that the general momentum of the

> foodie brigade has consistently been towards

> allowing animals to exist in as natural a state as

> possible before they get eaten, free range, free

> roaming, - but for some reason, exceptions like

> this are don't count - because, well, it tastes so

> diddly-darned good!

Agree with all this.

But come on everyone you'll never get the likes of MM, Loz et al to agree about this, largely because they're enjoying this thread too much. And because they clearly don't see it as a big issue, so let's let this die quietly like a free range goose after a long and happy life. :)

[Loz]

Parkdrive Wrote:

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> Loz, I've just re-read all of my posts regarding

> this subject and I think I'm right in saying that

> there's not a mention of banning the sale. Maybe,

> as AM stated, you should read first, engage brains

> and THEN write your posts.

Well then, time to put your cards on the table: are you in favour of a ban or not then, Parkdrive.

And have you possibly eaten battery-raised chicken lately?

[Otta]

That's why I haven't got a leg to stand on here. I just love chicken and chips. Now that is fine dining!

[maxxi]

In terms of farming methods that are wrong it isn't just battery chickens - it's also (among other things) intensively reared pigs, grain fed cattle and lambs (not 'natural' for grass eating ruminants) and your daily pinta (150,000 male calves a year killed shortly after birth as they are no use as dairy cattle).. on the last point I think the re-introduction of rose veal in this country (not crated) is a good thing and hope it catches on.

[civilservant]

Absolutely, maxxi - once you start thinking about it, it becomes very difficult to justify a lot of what passes for normal farming practice and to remain sanguine about how animals become food. I'd add long-distance transportation to your list.

A lot of sniping on here about cheap chicken - generally people who think about the subject turn vegetarian, or at least spend a little bit extra for ethically produced meat (and compensate for the extra cost by eating less of it).

[civilservant]

Here is some info on the production of foie gras, from Compassion in World Farming http://www.ciwf.org.uk/resources/publications/poultry_ducks_geese_turkeys/default.aspx

THE FORCE-FEEDING PROCEDURE

A feeding tube is inserted into the oesophagus (gullet) and boiled maize mixed with fat is delivered

by an auger (a screw which is operated by hand or an electric motor) or a pneumatic or hydraulic

system. Mechanised systems may deliver the feed in just 2-3 seconds, allowing one person to forcefeed

up to 400 caged ducks in an hour.

Ducks are typically force-fed twice a day for 12 to 15 days and geese three times a day for 15 to 21

days. The amount of feed in each meal is considerably greater than normal intake and is increased

over the force-feeding period. If force-feeding is stopped, the birds greatly reduce their feed intake

for several days

HOUSING

During the force-feeding period, the birds are confined in pens or group cages or, for ducks, individual cages may be used which are so small that the birds cannot turn around, stand erect or stretch their wings.

The slatted or wire mesh floors can cause foot injuries. Birds may be kept in near darkness during the force-feeding period, except when being fed.

HEALTH AND WELFARE PROBLEMS CAUSED BY FORCE-FEEDING

The enlarged liver ... forces the legs outwards so that the birds have difficulty standing

and their natural gait and ability to walk can be severely impaired.

Force-fed birds develop increasingly liquid faeces, are less active and are more likely to suffer from

bone fractures, liver lesions, respiratory disorders and ?wet neck? ? a condition where the neck

feathers become curved and sticky.

ALTERNATIVES TO FORCE-FEEDING

(...) Some farmers produce smaller and less fatty livers from ducks and geese without

force-feeding. These are offered as a substitute for foie gras (such as ?Faux Gras?), sometimes called

?ethical foie gras? or ?humane foie gras?. The Pateria de Sousa ?self-gorging? foie gras produced in

Spain comes from geese kept in very extensive free range conditions. The geese have enlarged livers

but only about half the minimum size of conventional goose foie gras. This is a premium product,

costing several times more than conventional foie gras.

[Loz]

Because they are a pressure group, CIWF typically examine the worst case situation and sneakily present it as the norm. It isn't in their interest to present the wider case. There are many farms in France that still practice the traditional method that is nothing like civilservant described. As I said in an earlier post, I agree that there are FG factories with poor practices such as those described by civilservant, so why not concentrate on those, instead of seeking to ban foie gras outright?

As others have noted, there is an big element of reverse snobbery going on here. You can quite easily write a similar piece on battery chicken farming, but no one here wants to run then fried chicken industry out of business, do they?

[Marmora Man]

aquarius moon Wrote:

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If anyone disagrees strongly with something, of course they are going to campaign against it.

*Bob* mentions fox-hunting. The majority of people hated the cruelty, tried to stop it & it was eventually banned. If these people hadn't forced their views on others, it would still be going on.

Hunting still goes on, foxes still die - in all likelihood they die in greater agony and experience prolonged periods of pain in doing so as, rather than a swift and natural death at the end of a pursuit, they are now more likely to shot or snared - neither of which can guarantee a clean kill. So the net outcome of the hunting ban (with dogs) is a net increase in pain and suffering of foxes but a pure thrill for those that wanted to cock snook at "toffs in pink", forgetting that the majority of hunts and hunt followers were just as socially mixed as any community in UK.