Protect East Dulwich (Lounged)

[benmorg]

Marcus Wrote:

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> In which part of my post do you see "...rage,

> hatred and vengeful emotions"? I'm not feeling any

> of these. Did you read my post or will you just

> brand anyone advocating some kind of community

> action as a violent extremist, hell bent on bloody

> retribution?

>

> I think the whole situation is rather tragic - for

> the victims and also for the young, mindless,

> rioters and their depressing lives.

>

> I hope you don't one day find yourself the victim

> of a crime - as people file past you, pretending

> not to notice.

Yes I read your post. I found it sarcastic and a bit rude actually. Hey ho. My post wasn't really directed at you personally. The point was a general one intended for all the people who've been frothing at the mouth calling for vigilante action in East Dulwich. I think it's mainly a knee-jerk reaction inspired by righteous anger. Understandable, but stupid.

[fuzzyboots]

Damian H - interesting point you raise about community organised watchfulness in Belfast. Made me immediately think of "neighbourhood watch" schemes. Perhaps there's some potential in reviving them with a view to personal safety as much as theft or burglary?

[Chick]

Why don?t we start up the East Dulwich Defence League? (EDDL)

[Chick]

Then we could apply for an EU grant. (from Norway perhaps, even though they aren?t strictly members)

[Marcus]

Chick Wrote:

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> Why don?t we start up the East Dulwich Defence

> League? (EDDL)

Why the comparison with a racist group? I don't see the connection.

[Magpie]

The reality is that there are not, and will never be, enough police to prevent lawlessness on the scale seen on Monday. Hence order is maintained through the consent of the people - ie social disapproval of bad behaviour. Where that social disapproval is not present then the myth of a civilised society breaks down. It is not vigilantism to try and prevent criminal activity - clearly we all need to assess the situation on grounds of personal safety, and trust that others will step into support, or indeed support others trying to intervene. This attitude should apply to low level anti-social behaviour - littering, feets on seats on trains, music playing on mobile phones ect, as much as to more serious harrassment or violence. I had an experience on a train last week, where I asked a young guy to turn his music down - he told me to eff off, it was only when a few others joined in did he back down.

[Damian H]

I agree with many of the points raised about proportionality etc, but I am concerned that there still seems to be an equating of what I am suggesting with angry violent action. It does not have to be that at all. I think that calm, sedate, proportionate action designed not to uneccesarily escalate situations wud be quite acceptable. I think we have to consider the alternative which in worst case scenario would be ED shops looted, burnt and innocent people attacked and injured. If confronted with such a scenario the concerns expressed about vigilante behaviour and The like pale into insignificance.

Of course everyone hopes there will be no repeat of what happened and we hope the police will have the measure of the situation now, but shud a similar situation recur and an adequate police response not be forthcoming I think it is not just our right but our duty to act to protect our community rather than sit frightened and isolated awaiting a cavalry that isn't coming.

Re the experience of others in having a swift police response to incidents - that's great when it happens. The problem is that such rapid responses are far from dependable due to resourcing issues. In the absence of a police response, threatened by a criminal mob on our streets, do we sit passively and hope it happens to someone else or do we act collectively to oppose the threat? To my mind, the answer is a no brainer.

[fuzzyboots]

*LIKE* (in the absence of a button!)

Damian H Wrote:

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> I agree with many of the points raised about

> proportionality etc, but I am concerned that there

> still seems to be an equating of what I am

> suggesting with angry violent action. It does not

> have to be that at all. I think that calm,

> sedate, proportionate action designed not to

> uneccesarily escalate situations wud be quite

> acceptable. I think we have to consider the

> alternative which in worst case scenario would be

> ED shops looted, burnt and innocent people

> attacked and injured. If confronted with such a

> scenario the concerns expressed about vigilante

> behaviour and The like pale into insignificance.

>

> Of course everyone hopes there will be no repeat

> of what happened and we hope the police will have

> the measure of the situation now, but shud a

> similar situation recur and an adequate police

> response not be forthcoming I think it is not just

> our right but our duty to act to protect our

> community rather than sit frightened and isolated

> awaiting a cavalry that isn't coming.

>

> Re the experience of others in having a swift

> police response to incidents - that's great when

> it happens. The problem is that such rapid

> responses are far from dependable due to

> resourcing issues. In the absence of a police

> response, threatened by a criminal mob on our

> streets, do we sit passively and hope it happens

> to someone else or do we act collectively to

> oppose the threat? To my mind, the answer is a no

> brainer.

[titch juicy]

LOL at suggestions of the need for this in East Dulwich.

A few windows were smashed on LL and people are acting like their wives and daughters have been raped, their homes ransacked and their first born children taken away.

A little bit of perspective goes a long way.

[Damian H]

titch juicy Wrote:

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> LOL at suggestions of the need for this in East

> Dulwich.

>

> A few windows were smashed on LL and people are

> acting like their wives and daughters have been

> raped, their homes ransacked and their first born

> children taken away.

I agree about perspective. Perhaps you could extend yours by a few hundred yards and notice what happened on Rye Lane? If the rioting had continued another couple of nights and the rich pickings in Peckham had been exhausted how long do you think it would have taken for some numpty to decide it might be interesting to stroll up to LL en masse? As we saw they actually looted the Tesco Express on East Dulwich Road and did turn up on LL even if not too much damage was done. Speaking as someone who lived in Belfast for 30 years and who got mugged in a frighteningly rapidly spreading public order situation in Brixton about tennyears ago I am well aware how fast these things can move. Anyone who has been following these events at all will have seen how they are being coordinated to move rapidly and unpredictably from one area to another. Did you not notice what happened on Lavender Hill in Clapham - another nice, fairly affluent, middle class area suddenly thronged by looters who came into the neighbourhood.

If you really think that couldnt happen in ED you are remarkably naive, or perhaps you enjoy housework so much you prefer to let it happen and then go out with your broom the morning afterwards to clean up.

>

> A little bit of perspective goes a long way.

[James Barber]

I think its reasonable to assume this is less likely to happen in ED while the looting and lawlessness seems related to mobile phone, electrical and money type shops.

Equally we have several pre existing 'code red' parking locations in ED where parking wardens have to be escorted by the Police. So perhaps we're not as immune as we'd all like to think.

[titch juicy]

Damian H Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> titch juicy Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > LOL at suggestions of the need for this in East

> > Dulwich.

> >

> > A few windows were smashed on LL and people are

> > acting like their wives and daughters have been

> > raped, their homes ransacked and their first

> born

> > children taken away.

>

> I agree about perspective. Perhaps you could

> extend yours by a few hundred yards and notice

> what happened on Rye Lane? If the rioting had

> continued another couple of nights and the rich

> pickings in Peckham had been exhausted how long do

> you think it would have taken for some numpty to

> decide it might be interesting to stroll up to LL

> en masse? As we saw they actually looted the

> Tesco Express on East Dulwich Road and did turn up

> on LL even if not too much damage was done.

> Speaking as someone who lived in Belfast for 30

> years and who got mugged in a frighteningly

> rapidly spreading public order situation in

> Brixton about tennyears ago I am well aware how

> fast these things can move. Anyone who has been

> following these events at all will have seen how

> they are being coordinated to move rapidly and

> unpredictably from one area to another. Did you

> not notice what happened on Lavender Hill in

> Clapham - another nice, fairly affluent, middle

> class area suddenly thronged by looters who came

> into the neighbourhood.

>

> If you really think that couldnt happen in ED you

> are remarkably naive, or perhaps you enjoy

> housework so much you prefer to let it happen and

> then go out with your broom the morning afterwards

> to clean up.

> >

> > A little bit of perspective goes a long way.

I didn't say it couldn't happen and wasn't inferring that. My point is that it didn't happen.

[Damian H]

"Less likely to happen..." and "it didn't happen..." are not particularly comforting concepts in terms of risk management.

I doubt that anyone would be considered responsible if they managed their insurance needs or identity security on such grounds.

In terms of the types of shops that are likely to attract attention - leyt's look at what has been targeted so far. Sure, 'sports fashion' stores (an oxymoron if ther ever was one) have been targeted as have phone and electrical goods stores. BUT...so have food shops (several of those in court for looting in Croydon were done for looting food from Munchies bakery), and so have alcohol retailers (lots of those on LL) and so have clothes shops (a few of those locally although perhaps not to the taste of the average 'sarff London yoof'). The Tescos on Rye Lane and East Dulwich Road were both attacked (presumabl for food and drink)and let's recall that we have a well stocked Co-Op slap bang in the m,iddle of LL. And let's look at the front page of today's Metro where an 11 year old was in court for looting a bin. Other shops looted include Staples (anyone need some hookey paperclips?) and of course Reeves furniture store was burnt to the ground. I don't think we can possibly assume that LL stores contain nothing of interest to looters or arsonists.

Lordship Lane is not hugely different from Lavender Hill Rise near Clapham - lots of bars and cafes and restaurants and that was hit very badly indeed by a plague of looters.

Let's not forget as well the possibility of mugging. In around 2001 I was caught up unexpectedly in the short-lived Brixton riot that resulted from the police shooting a black man (history repeats itself). The riot may have kicked off due to police/community tensions but that didn't prevent a bunch of hoods fleeing a police baton charge from taking the opportunity to relieve me of my wallet and phone and break my glasses. We have seen over the last few months an alarming number of muggings that seem to have been perpetrated by Peckham gang members coming into ED for a bit of thievery. And let us not forget the major incident on LL some months ago when there was a serious knifing on a bus that had the Lane swarming with police cars, ambulances and the police helicopter hovering overhead.

Whilst ED may be safer than Brixton or Peckham there is no mysterious forcefield around the area that would prevent it being invaded by an opportunist mob should things kick off again and they find that the police are too thick on the streets down in Peckham for comfort.

As I said I hope things calm down now but I think it is naive to assume that ED can expect to live a charmed existence.

[Damian H]

Oh...and I forgot to mention two murders within a short period of time on Barry Road.

[karter]

Damian, nicely said. When does the East Dulwich Militia begin work..?

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

"We have seen over the last few months an alarming number of muggings that seem to have been perpetrated by Peckham gang members coming into ED for a bit of thievery."

DH, you are talking through your arse here. What proof do you have that these muggings were committed by the good burghers of Peckham?

[Damn - in my rage I split an infinitive]

[Damian H]

Not PC enough for you? Well, I guess they could have come over from Brixton or up from Croydon or down from Tottenham. However when the description is young black lads dressed in hoodies I think the closest likely origin is Peckham way.

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

What a tit you are. Last time I looked, East Dulwich wasn't a segregated community for either colour of skin or taste in clothing.

[StraferJack]

More like not accurate enought? You think there aren't young black kids dressed in hoodies living in the ED area?

BUt hey you get to climb on the "PC brigade" wagon so off you go

They MIGHT be from peckham, ok? The might be from Nunhead or Forest Hill or from Dulwich

But sweeping generalisations and assumptions help no-one and antagonise others

[Damian H]

PGC and SJ, I am truly sorry that you feel such a need to be politically correct that you have lost the use of your physical senses and clearly your wit.

Let me explain.

You are quite right that there is no segregation in ED that excludes race or dress style but if you have failed to notice that there are vast ethnic, socio-economic and dress differences between ED and places like Peckham you really have lost the plot or need to visit the opticians. Let me suggest a simple exercise - open your eyes, engage your brain and spend an hour walking around ED and simply observe the people you see there. Repeat the experiment by walking around Peckham for an hour. I suspect you may notice a difference. One of these areas will present a far greater population of young black men wearing hoodies. Let me give you a tip - it won't be ED!!!

That is not to say that said hoodies could not be ED based but it significantly reduces the likelihood. Add to that another element - the fact that people are unlikely to mug people right on their own doorstep or within a few streets (kind of increases the chances of being recognised and identified). Combine these two facts and there are pretty strong beting odds that the muggers in question are from outside the area. It's not 100% certain but highly likely.

I mention Peckham but I am perfectly happy to accept the options of Forest Hill or Nunhead. My main point is they are much less likely to be locals.

PGC you think I am a tit? Well there you go. At least I am not a tit whose perception and brain is so muddled by political correctness that he is unable to notice or appreciate evidence and patterns.

[GinaG3]

Add to that another element - the

fact that people are unlikely to mug people right

on their own doorstep or within a few streets

(kind of increases the chances of being recognised

and identified).

Fact? You wanna bet..

[Damian H]

No. I am talking about odds and the combination of a number of factors - ethnicity, dress style and the fact that criminals often attempt to take steps to minimise the chances of being identified (such as not carrying out crimes on streets where they are known and recognised) and I think the combination of factors points to those muggers being from outside ED. If you read what I wrote you will see I used the word "seems" to indicate that it was not a certainty.

[Damian H]

When we see a Footlocker and JD Sports open up and do a roaring trade on LL, and a Mrs Robinson and White Stuff break a few sales records on Rye Lane I will happily review the situation.

[benmorg]

The Blackberry Riots: http://www.economist.com/node/21525976

[benmorg]

http://blogs-images.forbes.com/parmyolson/files/2011/08/BlackBerry-Looting-message.jpg

http://www.forbes.com/sites/parmyolson/2011/08/09/blackberrys-rim-helps-police-trace-london-rioters/