Request for comment: Collapse of the U. S. A.

[mockney piers]

...or to paraphrase "No representation without taxation"

I'm pretty sure huguenot has clicked the donate button, as have many of us.

Have you?

[ibilly99]

Thanks mockney for the heads up I wasn't aware but have done my duty to the forum.

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[Loz]

I've been around for ages and didn't realise that was there. So I've now pressed it and righted the situation!

[ibilly99]

Good comes out of this trolled longest thread ever - Nexus since you started it it would only be right for you do the decent thing - the internet ain't free you know.

[Santerme]

ibilly99 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Oi Hugenot this is a local forum for local people

> by living in Singapore you've obviously voted with

> your feet and given this country the brush off

> can't you bug the Singapore Expats Forum with your

> carefully nuanced erudition. No taxation without

> representation.

I find my time spread between Martock, Winnipeg and Shreveport.....

Get you some good perspective...

[mockney piers]

blimey, talk about silver linings. Well done chap(esse)s!

[Santerme]

Had not seen it before either and done now too.

[Scylla100]

As far as I can ascertain the End of the World as we know it (and I feellll fine..., thus far)...is: We've hit the end of growth by running out of resources like oil and natural gas. Our entire economic system is based on the essential need for growth, if growth stops, the economy collapses. We can't live without some sort of economic system, I can't grow my own food, heat my house, travel anywhere beyond Peckham Rye, employ myself or give myself a salary without some kind of working economic system so even a knitted Peruvian hat wearing lefty like myself needs a stable economic system.

In 2008 the entire system almost came down like a big house of cards, everywhere. That one company's (Lehman Brothers) failure almost brought everyone down indicates a systemic problem with every economic system in the world. An entire country (Iceland) defaulted on its loans. Lucky for most of us, it was a little country. Governments pumped credit into the system which gave everyone a bit of breathing space but didn't solve the problem. No growth plus lots of new cheap credit means you just make the amount of money defaulted on down the line bigger.

So countries in debt can grow out of debt (not if we've run out of resources to grow) default (A la Iceland. Not nice for people who loaned you the money like pension funds.), print up a lot of money to pay off debts (inflation and possibly hyper inflation with the proverbial wheelbarrow of money to buy a loaf of bread (And places like Greece cannot do this anyway. As long as they run with Euros, they aren't going to be allowed to print up lots of money), or borrow more money and pay off the debt later. And for the past three years, we've just borrowed more money.

The worry is, bond markets, which as far as I understand it is where country's borrow money, are likely to stop loaning out money. They'll stop loaning to Eurozone countries before they stop loaning to American markets (so we in the UK are going down first).

I imagine Huguenot you think governments are going to figure some clever way to limp along like this until, over time, the system somehow changes itself into something more stable. The argument would go, we've managed to keep things fairly stable in the last three years, its not been pretty but we've avoided a big nasty apoplectic collapse thus far. I would imagine the argument would be, to say the financial system would suddenly and completely collapse is unlikely and to hold such an opinion is extreme and unfounded.

I can't see how the bond market will continue loaning money indefinitely and I can't see how our economic system can deal with contraction and the end of growth without blowing up but I hope you guys who think that the theory of collapse is too extreme are right. This would be a nice argument to lose.

Scylla

[Undisputedtruth]

An interesting article rom the BBC website

Is the world facing fundamental changes?

[Huguenot]

That's a great article - perfectly reasoned and nuanced.

Doesn't needlessly grandstand or speculate about disaster, highlights that we'll be thinking about things in new ways and that the balance of economic power will shift (although not necessarily east).

More that that, it points out that we're all in this together and the we all have an interest in finding a solution. We don't hear any of the old style Americaneee about yellows and reds out to destroy the West.

Not a fart about apocalypse.

[Annette Curtain]

I can only imagine smoke coming off this little fellas wheel.

http://www.gadgets.co.uk/mas_assets/full/USBHAMSTER.jpg

Nette:-S

[Undisputedtruth]

@hugo,

I hope NN would modify his approach as I think this topic is worth discussing. Especially as the economic crisis is not likely to go away any time soon. To understand where NN is coming from, you have to understand the basics. The disparity between the two means that neither parties concern will benefit from the discussions.

[Huguenot]

Which two parties? You're not referring to me are you? You think I benefit from having to drain my energy to explain simple financial concepts and arrangements to you two wallies?

Ha ha ha!

I simply don't think that it's fair that your ridiculous, frequently fabricated but usually misquoted, poorly informed, abusive and destructive scaremongering should go unchallenged.

Are you claiming that you 'understand the basics' and I don't?

Ha ha ha! :))

*Wipes tear from eye*

What a comedian!!!

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ4aAnRur6SL10jfK7DTXO1FyaqEI0Z22ZoMjzorKQLggrJmii5

[Undisputedtruth]

Well Hugo,

I remember the power cuts in seventies. Also the winter of discontent. Stock trading was suspended during the 911 aftermath. Mobile phone networks were turned off during the 7 July London bombings. This summer we've had the worst riots for a century. So anything is possible.

Deep down, I seriously believe you don't know the basics and this harms constructive discussion.

[Huguenot]

Ha ha ha! :))

[Voyageur]

Oh dear... this thread is annoyingly stuck in a rut, but I keep getting drawn back to it like a moth to a flame - that and the fact that I am holding out for the unlikely miracle of both sides politely shaking hands and agreeing to differ!

[Undisputedtruth]

Hugo, it's a sign that your juvenile retorts is really a cover for lack of financial understanding.

Scylla directed an interesting question towards you and yet failed to give an answer.

[Annette Curtain]

Voyageur Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Oh dear... this thread is annoyingly stuck in a

> rut, but I keep getting drawn back to it like a

> moth to a flame - that and the fact that I am

> holding out for the unlikely miracle of both sides

> politely shaking hands and agreeing to differ!

Hmmmm

Me too, it's like crack.

Horrible but strangely compelling

(td)

[Huguenot]

Eh what?

Sorry twinkle, I didn't see the question?

S/he seemed to say (and I quite agree with him/her) that growth is going to be very limited for some time, and s/he hoped we would be able to muddle through.

What was the question?

[mockney piers]

Scylla didn't really ask a question, more proffered a position.

Whilst I appreciated a less strident and a more mature tone, it was absolutely littered with conflated concepts and misunderstandings.

For instance the market for bonds* is much stronger during times of uncertainty, low growth in the west is due to a lack of confidence more than anything, growth elsewhere is very healthy and has nothing, and nothing has anything to do with running out of resources, that's something for a good half a century or more depending on the resource in question.

Also debt can be managed by growth (increased tax receipts), or spending less, hence all these bloody cuts everywhere everyone is complaining about.

All said, I'm not sure how anyone was meant to 'answer' it.

But then this thread has seen 20 bloody pages of half baked theories and earnest rebuttals, I'm not sure another one will help anyone.

*I'm not sure what a 'bond market' with some sort of anthropomorphic motives attached to it is.

[New Nexus]

Undisputedtruth Wrote:

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> Hugo, it's a sign that your juvenile retorts is

> really a cover for lack of financial

> understanding.

>

> Scylla directed an interesting question towards

> you and yet failed to give an answer.

Sorry to say you are wasting your time with Huguenot, he is one of those closed off types, he will not yield to any form of logical nor reasonable debate.

You can show him facts, figures, news reports, economic lectures,

And if he does bother looking at your body of evidence, he just comes back with the same old ?I know better? answer, then hurls abuse around, like it is normal to talk to people that way.

At least king Canute did what he did to show people the limits of his powers, Huguenot thinks he really can hold back the seas, and walk on them too.

I now wait for the vanguard to strike.

[Huguenot]

Ha ha ha :))

The main problem you have New Nexus is that none of the facts, figures, news reports or economic lectures support your opinion. They all support a much more rational and sensible interpretation.

The stuff you didn't make up anyway ;-)

Still, with you there to 'stave off the vanguard' we can all sleep soundly in our beds. Can I get you a spear or a sacred stone?

[StraferJack]

Anyone convinced that nexus and udt are not the same person?

[Annette Curtain]

StraferJack Wrote:

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> Anyone convinced that nexus and udt are not the

> same person?

I'm starting to think that nexus, udt AND Hugo are possibly the same person.

Scary, but it is possible

* lets out scream whilst trapped in a bell jar *

Nette:-S

[Huguenot]

There are surprisingly few people who use the name 'Hugo' to refer to me. Of those few you'll find in a search, I know that several of them are the same person, so that does somewhat limit the options for UDT's other incarnations if he has them.

However, New Nexus only ever rarely refers to me with some distaste as 'Huguenot' so either it's someone else or part of an extraordinarily ornate alter ego.