Plot to rename bonfire night

[mockney piers]

I don't think there's anything other than a sort of residual grudging respect manifesting as a puerile, knowingly humorous 'hatred' left between England and France.

I don't think the French get offended by Waterloo or Trafalgar, many probably haven't even heard of the latter, leave alone the like of Poitiers, Agincourt and Crecy because nationalism only celebrates the good times. Much in the same vein that noone outside of history enthusiasts have ever heard of Orleans or Castillon (we lost those).

I'm sure the war of 1870 and particularly the 1940 Battle of France stick in French craws much more these days.

For that matter how many English would be offended by mention of all those battles we lost to the Dutch like the Medway, the Pearl Harbor of its day!!

[Annette Curtain]

Exactly Piers.

Plus- I'm sure I've seen the Pope at Lewis Bonfire night.

Nette:)

[maxxi]

Let's not forget that James I made 5th November a compulsory day of celebration in the climate of paranoia and fear that immediately followed the failed attempt on James' life - a time when people could be arrested/imprisoned/tortured without trial for just being 'suspected' of being against the crown.

I think bonfire night survives because - like all the Christian religious festivals in our calendar - it has taken over from earlier pagan rites which involved fires, feasting and possibly human sacrifice (real or symbolic) like the Green Man etc.

The way of looking at 'guys' has changed over the years and they can now take the shape of unpopular figures of the time. In Lewes (one of the most extravagant and vociferous bonfire nights) - along with the Pope and Guy Fawkes himself - effigies of Presidents Clinton and Bush, John Major and Gordon Brown (all in poses and dress designed to ridicule) have all been burned.

If one delves deep enough into what passes for creativity at council level (or just makes it up) one might suspect that The Colour Thief was an attempted harkening back to pagan times when the colours of autumn were about to be replaced by the long grey months of winter and the bonfire celebrations would be to appease the gods and ensure the coming spring would be fertile etc.

Sometimes I guess you can think these things through a little too much.

*Dons suit of ivy and tries to set fire to effigy of Piers Morgan with damp matches*

[BrandNewGuy]

maxxi Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I think bonfire night survives because - like all

> the Christian religious festivals in our calendar

> - it has taken over from earlier pagan rites which

> involved fires, feasting and possibly human

> sacrifice (real or symbolic) like the Green Man

> etc.

Interestingly, there's no evidence for a pre-Christian Green Man - maybe other fertility and 'earth' characters, but not the traditional green-leaved face, which first popped up in Christian churches. The folk singer Sedayne here examines the evidence and suggests that the 'pagan' origins for the Green Man were probably a Victorian fiction.

[edhistory]

Not much evidence there.

John K

[maxxi]

My passing ref. to the GM was to illustrate that there may have been effigies and live sacrifices burned and bonfires lit that weren't related to Guido and when I talk of pagans I simply mean pre-Christian polytheistic religions rather than the Wicca tosh spouted by crystal-rubbing hairies and am certainly not one of the-

"...modern pagans and such-like new-agers who think themselves privy to a deeper sacred knowledge, such as the increasingly queer notions one finds in most books on the Green Man which masquerades as ancient wisdom but is in actual fact wholesale, and unfounded, invention on the part of the writers."

-as your folkie suggests.

[Magpie]

To arrange a fireworks display on or near the 5th of November, and then name it anything other than a bonfire/Guy Fawkes night display is so self-evidently a politically motivated and deliberate decision - to deny otherwise is ostrich-like

[Ridgley]

The fact is we have been celebrating Guy Fawkes night for years whether we were forced or not so why change it now, as to your thread MP I was just looking at from a historical point of view I know there is no grudge now.

http://talesofcuriosity.com/v/GunPowder/i/GuyFawkes.jpg

[mockney piers]

I still don't think this has anything to do with political correctness, more a misguided pretentiousness.

After all, anti-catholic sentiment is pretty much the only acceptable prejudice left in the country today ;)

The fear and distrust of 'popery'* and catholic ritual and mysticism and the puritanical reaction was burned into the national consciousness in the 17th century and it hasn't entirely lost its grip.

*No, not pot pourri!!!!!

[James Barber]

I'm now told be reporters the event has been cancelled. I'm seeking clarification.

does that mean The Colour Theif..... is cancelled but something else is now proposed. Or a total cancellation.

If so what will the ?55,000 be spent on in our soutern parts of Southwark.

[louiseneilan]

That would really be sulking on a massive scale. The council should be pleased with all the free publicity they've had for their fireworks display!

[Magpie]

Mockney - I imagine the conversation went something like this

Generic right-on councillor 1: "Lets fund a fireworks display on Guy Fawkes nights"

Generic right-on councillor 2: "Good idea, but we can't associate it with Guy Fawkes, as that could be considered [by ourselves] as culturally oppressive"

Generic right-on councillor 1: "I agree, lets celebrate diversity by calling it something bland and meaningless, how about Colour Thief"

Generic right-on councillor 2: "Thats brilliant, the muslims will love it"

[mockney piers]

Well what a bunch of killjoy grumps you lot have turned out to be.

I was rather looking forward to having some mulled cider in the park after dark and watching some well meaning fools make idiots of themselves in jester costumes under multi coloured strobe lighting, with some coincidental firework and bonfire action going on.

I guess I'm going to have to make a pyre out of hedgehogs in my own back garden now and do it all on my lnoesome.

Yours chagrined from champion hill*, Harumph bah humbug etc!!!

*it aaalmost works.

[Annette Curtain]

Hardly suprising really, is it.

Nette(?)

[mockney piers]

I'm confusedf magpie.

The muslims who apparently think the pope is still behind some sort of crusade against islam are now happier that we're not symbolically burning catholics?

Oh please tell me that was sophisticated irony, it's so hard to tell on here sometimes.

[Huguenot]

Ha, yeah right!

More like...

Blushing 23 year old party apparatchik from monied middle class family with a social conscience flounces across the office...

"Blousie, Blousie... we haven't, yooo know.... *whispers* spent the budgie. What shall we do?"

"Oh Annie, really? Why don't you speak to Timsy? I'm sure he likes you, you know - why don't you have a 'chat over supper' at a bistro like Tony and Gordon? See if you can tickle his fancy?"

"Really? Do you think he does?" *blushes* "Felicity told me about this super thing they had in Islington that all his chums thought was really cooooool? Do you think he'll like me more if I say that?"

[mockney piers]

Now that's much more like it.

- Oh yes daaaaaalink, it was all the rage on Primrose Hill last year, Gwinny and the chap from Coldplay were there, oh wouldn't it be marvellous to get Dulwich on the map too, perhaps we can invite the wonderful James Nesbitt....

[Magpie]

Lets just say I wasn't being particularly serious, but humour me, as it amuses me to imagine that this is exactly the type of conversation weird council-type people have when rationalising their slightly barmy decisions, as they try and contort themselves through a self-imposed straitjacket around "diversity" issues.

[Magpie]

Really, you think Southwark council is full of middle-class imogens and Toby's? I had always imagined a bunch of middle class amateur Marxists clutching copies of the Socialist Worker - as they think of yet more ways in which they can ban fun.

[mockney piers]

I figured there were enough of them to sneak 55 grands worth of funding past the noses of the marxists to create 'colour thief an extravaganza of....etc'

[Ridgley]

Magpie wrote

------------------------

Really, you think Southwark council is full of middle-class imogens and Toby's? I had always imagined a bunch of middle class amateur Marxists clutching copies of the Socialist Worker - as they think of yet more ways in which they can ban fun.

That some them up dame! I now have to put away my costume this year I wanted mock a few Catholics how badly they cocked up centuries ago ;-)

[mockney piers]

>>"Really, you think Southwark council is full of middle-class imogens and Toby's? I had always imagined a bunch of middle >>class amateur Marxists clutching copies of the Socialist Worker"

thinking about it, they're the same thing aren't they ;)

[Huguenot]

Most of Labour work in London seemed to me to be done by pretty, sloaney middle class interns whose parents can afford to pay for them to live in Clapham for a year on no salary to build their 'connections'.

I once dated a left wing editor of a well known political community magazine, and she used to go back regularly to Lymington to go yachting ;-)

The Tory ones were more bossy, stout, ruddy cheeked types.

[Ridgley]

H wrote

----------------------------

The Tory ones were more bossy, stout, ruddy cheeked types.

Like this one H?

http://www.independent.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00168/Pg-1-thatcher-rex_168750t.jpg

[StraferJack]

"as they think of yet more ways in which they can ban fun."

I'm trying to think of the last time Soutwark council tried to stop me having fun - nope

But this Light Thief business if it had gone ahead - that would have been a real slap in the face. Instead of going out on a cold Nov evening and enjoying some fireworks,I would have had to go out and... oh hang on a sec

This thread is just nothing but

a) computedshorty being bored since Nunhead forum died

b) James Barber (who I have defended on many an occassion) trying to make political gain (of you google the story you get several lib-dem blogs all parroting the same thing

c) another excuse for people to council-bash for no good reason

bash away - you'll end up being served by the people you deserve